U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Economics
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 10-10-2015, 11:35 AM
 
Location: Ruidoso, NM
5,514 posts, read 6,120,443 times
Reputation: 4644

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldtrader View Post
Our exports have had a big part in this recovery.


The latest: U.S. INTERNATIONAL TRADE IN GOODS AND SERVICES
AUGUST 2015

The U.S. Census Bureau and the U.S. Bureau of Economic Analysis, through the Department of Commerce,
announced today that the goods and services deficit was $48.3 billion in August, up $6.5 billion
from $41.8 billion in July, revised. August exports were $185.1 billion, $3.7 billion less than
July exports. August imports were $233.4 billion, $2.8 billion more than July imports.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 10-10-2015, 11:36 AM
 
Location: Ruidoso, NM
5,514 posts, read 6,120,443 times
Reputation: 4644
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynard32 View Post
Convenient, reliable, and economical transportation networks are part of what keeps our standards of living high and also maintains the US as such a desirable and attractive place to produce goods. It's in many ways a classic public good.
Then we should have more railroads and rail traffic.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-10-2015, 03:22 PM
 
Location: Berwick, Penna.
15,910 posts, read 10,360,082 times
Reputation: 20473
With a few exceptions here and there, we need very little in the way of expansion of our rail network. The system which existed in 1950 had about 50% more route-miles, but it was set up so as to be able to handle just about any shipment, from anywhere to anywhere. This is clearly no longer true -- the lifestyles in suburbs and rural areas, and even the neighborhoods within larger cities, revolve around small, infrequent shipments of the type UPS and FedEx are better geared to handle. Rail branch lines which used to handle the needs of local lumber, fuel, and feed dealers dried up a generation or more ago.

What a modern railroad does, and very efficiently, is to handle much larger amounts of commodities handled and shipped in bulk -- so much so that, to cite a single example, moving petroleum from the Bakken oil field in North Dakota (which geologists have been aware of for decades, but which is dispersed over a wider area) has been accomplished without the construction of a network of pipelines. On the other hand, coal and iron ore, two mainstays of rail traffic years ago, diminished due to environmental controversies and the increasing availability of recyclable scrap vs. pig iron smelted from ore.

That rule also holds for container and trailer-on-flat-car traffic, although the energy efficiency promised in theory tends to diminish in the real world as the length of the "line haul" is shortened. The railroads hold a substantial cost advantage for a container moving from Long Beach to Atlanta; to haul the same box from Norfolk, not so much, and from Savannah, none whatsoever.

Railroad signaling and traffic control has evolved greatly since the days when perhaps 10,000 men issued written orders from lineside offices and signal towers at any given moment. The seven remaining major rail carriers have concentrated most of their dispatching functions in single offices like Union Pacific's "bunker" in downtown Omaha, or at most, in perhaps a half-dozen centers. Since the technology involved is extremely expensive (on a par with jet airliners, for example), it's very seldom modified or expanded, and when occasioned by public-sector activity, as in the case of new local commuter operations which have emerged in Los Angeles, Dallas and Florida, for example, usually funded jointly by both the public and private sectors. What few traffic issues are left can be handled by a system of radio communication and written "track warrants" -- successors to the written orders of fifty years ago.

So I expect to see additional traffic, perhaps even commodities lost almost entirely to trucking, such as perishables, eventually finding their way back onto the rails, but the process will be a slow one, limited as much by politics as anything else.

Last edited by 2nd trick op; 10-10-2015 at 03:43 PM..
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-10-2015, 04:38 PM
 
1,589 posts, read 1,107,251 times
Reputation: 1097
Quote:
Originally Posted by rruff View Post
Then we should have more railroads and rail traffic.
You seriously misunderstood the point of that post. Here, I'll spell it out for you again...

Convenient, reliable, and economical transportation networks are part of what keeps our standards of living high and also maintains the US as such a desirable and attractive place to produce goods. It's in many ways a classic public good.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-10-2015, 05:08 PM
 
17,501 posts, read 24,242,052 times
Reputation: 19304
Quote:
Originally Posted by cowdog View Post
I drove a few hundred miles on a few days this week. I was on the interstate which had more big trucks than I have ever seen. So I get to thinking, "If all this product is being shipped around the country why is not our economy booming?" I mean, shipping all this around is only because people are buying it right? I think we might have an economy that is to large to expand.
You heard about automakers conspiracy to not allow public transportation and trains and move everything around the country by trucks? It's a known historical fact that is not even questioned.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-10-2015, 05:18 PM
 
Location: Berwick, Penna.
15,910 posts, read 10,360,082 times
Reputation: 20473
Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz View Post
You heard about automakers conspiracy to not allow public transportation and trains and move everything around the country by trucks? It's a known historical fact that is not even questioned.
The basic facts behind the National City Lines "conspiracy" are matters of public record, but they have been embellished with a very broad brush by various zealots, as the choice of words above tends to substantiate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_conspiracy

The bus advocates never sought to "not allow public transportation" and the movement of freight was never involved in any way. Small, infrequent shipments of high-value merchandise are a natural fit for highway transport, and the manufacturer often operates its own truck fleet, the railroads have been successful in recapturing freight where the distance and volume of freight moved justify the heavier investment.

Only one automaker, General Motors, was actually involved, and only the bus manufacturing division; the various urban transit systems had fallen into disrepute in large part because of both economic strangulation by local politicians and the demonstrable preference by much of the public for the convenience of the private vehicle.

Ironically, the basic design of the "trackless trolleys" or trolley buses which continued to serve in a few cities like San Francisco, Seattle and Dayton were an adaptation of designs from GMC's Truck and Coach division.

Last edited by 2nd trick op; 10-10-2015 at 06:12 PM..
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-11-2015, 08:16 PM
 
Location: Oceania
8,610 posts, read 7,456,394 times
Reputation: 8318
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd trick op View Post
With a few exceptions here and there, we need very little in the way of expansion of our rail network. The system which existed in 1950 had about 50% more route-miles, but it was set up so as to be able to handle just about any shipment, from anywhere to anywhere. This is clearly no longer true -- the lifestyles in suburbs and rural areas, and even the neighborhoods within larger cities, revolve around small, infrequent shipments of the type UPS and FedEx are better geared to handle. Rail branch lines which used to handle the needs of local lumber, fuel, and feed dealers dried up a generation or more ago.

What a modern railroad does, and very efficiently, is to handle much larger amounts of commodities handled and shipped in bulk -- so much so that, to cite a single example, moving petroleum from the Bakken oil field in North Dakota (which geologists have been aware of for decades, but which is dispersed over a wider area) has been accomplished without the construction of a network of pipelines. On the other hand, coal and iron ore, two mainstays of rail traffic years ago, diminished due to environmental controversies and the increasing availability of recyclable scrap vs. pig iron smelted from ore.

That rule also holds for container and trailer-on-flat-car traffic, although the energy efficiency promised in theory tends to diminish in the real world as the length of the "line haul" is shortened. The railroads hold a substantial cost advantage for a container moving from Long Beach to Atlanta; to haul the same box from Norfolk, not so much, and from Savannah, none whatsoever.

Railroad signaling and traffic control has evolved greatly since the days when perhaps 10,000 men issued written orders from lineside offices and signal towers at any given moment. The seven remaining major rail carriers have concentrated most of their dispatching functions in single offices like Union Pacific's "bunker" in downtown Omaha, or at most, in perhaps a half-dozen centers. Since the technology involved is extremely expensive (on a par with jet airliners, for example), it's very seldom modified or expanded, and when occasioned by public-sector activity, as in the case of new local commuter operations which have emerged in Los Angeles, Dallas and Florida, for example, usually funded jointly by both the public and private sectors. What few traffic issues are left can be handled by a system of radio communication and written "track warrants" -- successors to the written orders of fifty years ago.

So I expect to see additional traffic, perhaps even commodities lost almost entirely to trucking, such as perishables, eventually finding their way back onto the rails, but the process will be a slow one, limited as much by politics as anything else.
^^^What goods are you shipping from Long Beach and what are you shipping from Norfolk? The two different coasts serve different continents - the west coast receives goods from Asia whereas the east receives from Europe, Africa and South America.
Ever see a container graveyard?
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-11-2015, 08:27 PM
 
Location: Berwick, Penna.
15,910 posts, read 10,360,082 times
Reputation: 20473
Quote:
Originally Posted by armory View Post
^^^What goods are you shipping from Long Beach and what are you shipping from Norfolk? The two different coasts serve different continents - the west coast receives goods from Asia whereas the east receives from Europe, Africa and South America.
Ever see a container graveyard?
We understand this, but there is a lot of speculation at present that a portion of Asian merchandise shipments in containers will be diverted once the PANAMAX project is completed; at present, however, only a handful of ports, chiefly Hampton Roads, can handle vessels with this deep a draft. and the change won't come overnight.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-12-2015, 02:04 AM
 
9,892 posts, read 10,809,481 times
Reputation: 22030
Quote:
Yes, in general many areas are booming now, like here where high tech and aviation are keeping the new $800k homes selling along with luxury cars. The problem is that those trucks are carrying a lot of products made in China that have come into the west coast ports, and get trucked to retailer warehouses in western states or by rail east and then trucked to the central and eastern states. While that's good for the longshoremen, truckers, and those able to buy less expensive items at the stores and online, it's not good for those that used to work in manufacturing in the U.S. and have no other job skills.
A lot of those trucks were carrying the $185,000,000,000 (yes 185 Billion Dollars) that this country exported overseas in August 2015 alone. These exports account only for 13 percent of GDP. Our largest exports are Capital Goods and Industrial Supplies. And yes, we even export to China. Canada by the way is our biggest buyer for our exports taking 19% of our exports. And 14% of our exports go to Mexico.

We still manufacture a heck of a lot of things in the U.S., even if you don't realize it. And trucks haul a lot of goods to the coast areas, for shipping overseas. My son drops in and sees us quite often. He is an owner/operator of a flat bed truck he hauls to the coasts, and he does not stop here every trip, but stops by 2 or 3 times a month for lunch as I can pick him up at a big truck stop where he parks his truck in less than 10 minutes. He can't stop when he is on two tight of a schedule he can's take a couple hours off when going through town, and often he passes through at night when we are asleep.

The goods we manufacture in the U.S. are the high priced things like industrial machinery, automobiles, and much more. There are 13 Auto manufacturing companies in the U.S., and only 2 are American owned companies. Obama sold Chrysler overseas, and the other 10 have but up some big factories in the U.S. to build cars, and foreign owned companies as a whole pay higher wages than the American owned companies.

Are you aware that for several years, and projected into the future for 10 years, that foreign owned companies have hired another 1,000,000 Americans to work for them in this country each and every year. It is not shipping foreign owned jobs overseas, but automation that has done away with lots of jobs. This country now builds more autos than 40 years ago, with less than half as many workers. The automation, has allowed the companies to greatly improve the quality of the cars, as the robots don't turn out sloppy work like humans did for those jobs they replaced.

For an example of automation in the auto industry go to the following link. It is an example of what is happening all throughout manufacturing. In 1960s, a vice president friend of mine when I was in the corporate world, took me through the Cadillac plant on a personal tour. It was wall to wall people along the assembly line. Now it is robots, and a few people.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_lfxPI5ObM
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-12-2015, 07:44 AM
 
Location: Ruidoso, NM
5,514 posts, read 6,120,443 times
Reputation: 4644
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldtrader View Post
A lot of those trucks were carrying the $185,000,000,000 (yes 185 Billion Dollars) that this country exported overseas in August 2015 alone. These exports account only for 13 percent of GDP. Our largest exports are Capital Goods and Industrial Supplies. And yes, we even export to China. Canada by the way is our biggest buyer for our exports taking 19% of our exports. And 14% of our exports go to Mexico.
Please consider reality. We import a lot more than we export. See above. This is getting worse not better.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Economics

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2023, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top