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Old 09-18-2014, 09:39 AM
 
2,485 posts, read 1,780,846 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PedroMartinez View Post
This is quite simple. Government employees should be paid equal to that of private employees and should be given the option to participate in a 401k.

No more pensions for public employees.

EDIT: I bet most public employees would not want to this to happen, because they know they have a sweet deal.
Who decides how it gets paid equal? That's such a vague idea. People get paid differently in different times in the private sector. How to equal that?

Salary depends on supply and demand. How can a public sector employer pay more when it doesn't have money? You are basically saying that public sector employers should go with supply and demand. That means they would become private sector.
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Old 09-18-2014, 10:29 AM
 
2,485 posts, read 1,780,846 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jertheber View Post
Moderator cut: See belowThe various state, federal, municipal jobs have the public as the their "boss", so, are you, as the sitting boss, going to deny your employees a decent life into the future beyond their working years? Why is it that some of the American populace becomes so obsessed with what they see as a unfair situation in the various PERS systems?? We as citizens should openly and wholeheartedly advocate for "our" employees, and then follow through with our demands on the rest of the employer class to do the same.......

Tune into Moderator cut: see belowradio sometime and you'll see where all this silly turmoil is created. Instead of advocating for laws that make employers responsible for the contribution to a REAL retirement system Moderator cut: see below They also advocate for the totality of Social Security to be turned over to their masters on Wall Street for "our benefit", just as they so wisely invested during the pre meltdown days that darkened America's days in 2008. I wish people would do a little studying of the issues before wanting a "debate" that is simply "bait"..................
"The rest of the employer class to do the same". They don't do the same. It doesn't work that way. And they probably can't in the future of a more competitive global economy.

What you are saying is that we as tax payers should privilege one group of people, who don't necessarily put more labor in, over others. We somehow should get the worst of the private sector so that public employees should get the best of us. Essentially it means one group of people who are "wise" enough to get the sweet deal should protect their money and lifestyle, instead of thinking about the bigger picture of everyone sacrificing. It's understandable that people protect their money and job security. But that in itself isn't inherently good or impressive. It's selfishness. If times are good, it is fine. Now times are bad. We are essentially privileging one group.

And the worst of all is that this group of people are often dishonest about their intentions. Instead, they talk about their civic service and value to the society. Sure, they contribute. Everybody does. A stay at home mom or dad makes more significant contributions to our society than many of our public employees. That mom or dad is expected to inflate the lifestyle of public employees and put their head down at Aldi.

"Boss". What a great way to be a boss of public employees. People have become self servers. They only see their pot of money, refuse to share the suffering with the rest of the society.

Public employees have long been sheltered from global economic changes. Private sector employees are more vulnerable to these changes and much closer to reality. The truth, sad as it may be, is that private sector employers are going further and further away from the nostalgic model of the past. Those jobs are not coming back. Contractors have replaced permanent employees. labor supply is completely saturated even in high skill fields. Overseas competition is coming up in the next several decades. If anything, we are living the last chapter of the post1945 America. Its moods, mindset, and assumptions are on the verge of an inevitable transformation. Some say hey Europe is doing fine. No. Just wait. Europe is going through the same transformation. Economically they will move toward the American model or the Chinese model.

Just in general, I find it eering that Americans and Europeans still live in denial of our real world. People are nostalgic to the past and idealistic about the future. But what are Americans and Europeans going to do when the global paradigm shift is here, a whole different distribution of wealth, power, and opportunities. It's already happening. Things are going east. If anything, we need to educate our next generation about this and prepare themselves for it.

At many points of history, such as the decline of Rome or the fall of the Venetian empire, those who were actively prepared suffered much less than those who were unprepared. We can choose to live in an illusion and hope we will never run out of money. But if we do, our citizens will be the victims. That includes many who could have made it, but missed the boat because they were promised things that will never be delivered, taught idealism not reality, and told lies and lost time. Or we can choose to engage with trends and rebuild. We can still help the truly needy, the disabled, etc. But we can no longer afford to steer young people into that direction. It terrifies me that people with such great potential are taught unrealistic ideologies and then become bitter about reality. How many more people do we want to miss the boat?

We can't afford it. We are running out of money. Our corporations, strong today and totally arrogant, might actually encounter strong competition from particularly china. We can not even assume that private sector companies are going to be strong for sure and for a long time. Let's at least recognize that we are declining and have been declining for a long time. In recent decades, we have used debt and credit to fund our inflated lifestyles, unrealistic programs, wars, entitlements, etc. Now and soon, the bills are due one after another.
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Old 09-18-2014, 11:16 AM
 
Location: Philadelphia
11,834 posts, read 9,929,982 times
Reputation: 7989
LOL, I love when people say "we are running out of money". That statement just REEKS of ignorance to the fact that The Federal Reserve prints dollar bills like crazy and not only added over $4 TRILLION to their balance sheets the past couple years but created out of thin air over $20 TRILLION bailing out PRIVATE companies, many of which are not even AMERICAN. Money is NOTHING-it only has value because WE THE PEOPLE choose to give it value.

Learn where the true power lies and you will realize money is not it-people and their labor are!

The currency of our nation should be controlled by it's people-not outside and private interests, which has been the case in this country since the Fed was created by banksters with their Pupper Senator Aldrich in 1913.

Instead of QE, the Fed Could Have Given $56,000 to Every Household in America!

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/instea...094500275.html

And people are on here saying that Government employees-the majority of whom I would wager live paycheck to paycheck- are making too much? Can you say INDOCTRINATED!

How the Federal Reserve Is Killing America
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Old 09-18-2014, 11:19 AM
 
2,485 posts, read 1,780,846 times
Reputation: 2140
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huckleberry3911948 View Post
Its a good point
But of course the reason they get money and benefits is not bek they are government
Its bek they have unions
You hate unions
How is that working out
???
Their unions are run at the cost of tax payers money. They should be negotiating with tax payers. But instead, they are negotiating with themselves. Of course it's working out for them. It's working out for Wall Street cats too. You want to show off these advantage takers?

People don't hate unions. Such a lie. What they dislike is blunt advantage taking. Privileging one group over another group, using everybody's wealth to feed the greed of a few.

Their unions won't last long and shouldn't.
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Old 09-18-2014, 11:31 AM
 
2,485 posts, read 1,780,846 times
Reputation: 2140
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2e1m5a View Post
LOL, I love when people say "we are running out of money". That statement just REEKS of ignorance to the fact that The Federal Reserve prints dollar bills like crazy and not only added over $4 TRILLION to their balance sheets the past couple years but created out of thin air over $20 TRILLION bailing out PRIVATE companies, many of which are not even AMERICAN. Money is NOTHING-it only has value because WE THE PEOPLE choose to give it value.

Learn where the true power lies and you will realize money is not it-people and their labor are!

Instead of QE, the Fed Could Have Given $56,000 to Every Household in America!

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/instea...094500275.html

And people are on here saying that Government employees-the majority of whom I would wager live paycheck to paycheck- are making too much? Can you say INDOCTRINATED!

How the Federal Reserve Is Killing America
People and their labor are apparently not true power. Private employees work very hard but they don't get paid with the same privileges and security as public employees. Public employees don't use their labor as power. They don't put in more labor. They gain power by harnessing the police power of the state to harvest things they don't deserve and refuse to sacrifice.

The real distinction is who gains access to the police power of the state. Labor is not only powerless in America, it is used by public sector to benefit just a small group of their own people, all built on the labor of everyone else. Public employees have their lifestyle all figured out. Now if the society doesn't have enoug money, then take it from other people. These employees just have no concern for their fellow citizens they give lip service to. They just want their own pot of money. It revolves around their privileged self.

And the hilarious lie is that we are not running out of money. Of course, taking other people's money is not painful. It seems infinite. Privileging the very few at the cost of the majority.
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Old 09-18-2014, 11:52 AM
 
2,485 posts, read 1,780,846 times
Reputation: 2140
One of the biggest silly lies is saying private sector employees should get more and get unionized.

For a complex issue like that, this statement isn't an advice or solution to the blight private employees face.

Rather, it is a tongue in cheek statement that justifies how public employees don't have to sacrifice, don't want to share, don't want to give their money. It revolves around public employees who enjoy significantly more job security paid by tax payers.

The logical fallacy is that although it is supposed to show how unionization benefits the whole society, it shows how one small group of unionized employees can do well and totally ignore that they do well precisely because others fund them. What it shows is exactly this: unionization everywhere is not going to work. Unionization of small groups work for people in those groups but cost too much for others. It's inequality to start with.

Who doesn't like a sweet deal right? Between a sweet deal and a sense of shame, most people go for sweet deals and are proud of it.
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Old 09-18-2014, 11:59 AM
 
Location: Las Vegas, NV
332 posts, read 233,376 times
Reputation: 775
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wudge View Post
Should tax paying citizens who do not have a pension plan going for them be required to fund the pensions of others?

Few private sector employees have a pension plan in this day and age. However, most public sector employees (municipal, state and Federal) have pension plans that are funded in whole or in part from taxes imposed on all people in their respective tax base.

In my mind, it doesn't make any sense whatsoever to require people who don't have a pension to fund the pensions of people in the public sector. If it were up to me, I would provide for a tax credit for people without a pension plan or, better yet, pass a law that required all public sector employees to fund their own pensions.

What makes sense to you?
I don't like Social Security, but I like that it keeps out old people from dying on the streets. I can't stand paying for it, but I feel like of all my taxes, it's one of the most reasonable. What I can't stand is paying thousands of dollars a year in taxes to the F35 program. That program has no value whatsoever (because fighter/bombers are obsolete already) and the costs are astronomical. We're actually spending about $2,000 per citizen for that project, and that number goes up even more when you take into account that taxes are only paid by a fraction of the country. So while I may be paying several thousand to Social Security, I can see a benefit from that...I don't see a benefit from the thousands I'm paying to the F35 program and other similar wasteful Military projects. I support the military, but not the waste. We could easily cut the military budget in half without putting a dent in our safety.
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Old 09-18-2014, 12:27 PM
 
2,485 posts, read 1,780,846 times
Reputation: 2140
Quote:
Originally Posted by HedgeYourInvestments View Post
I don't like Social Security, but I like that it keeps out old people from dying on the streets. I can't stand paying for it, but I feel like of all my taxes, it's one of the most reasonable. What I can't stand is paying thousands of dollars a year in taxes to the F35 program. That program has no value whatsoever (because fighter/bombers are obsolete already) and the costs are astronomical. We're actually spending about $2,000 per citizen for that project, and that number goes up even more when you take into account that taxes are only paid by a fraction of the country. So while I may be paying several thousand to Social Security, I can see a benefit from that...I don't see a benefit from the thousands I'm paying to the F35 program and other similar wasteful Military projects. I support the military, but not the waste. We could easily cut the military budget in half without putting a dent in our safety.
I have no problem with cutting the military budget. But the biggest corruption is in these wasteful programs, wasteful positions, activities, and the people who live off of their fellow citizens. They just care about their own money. Shameful.
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Old 09-18-2014, 03:25 PM
 
Location: Tennessee
34,037 posts, read 32,610,706 times
Reputation: 50150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Costaexpress View Post
I have no problem with cutting the military budget. But the biggest corruption is in these wasteful programs, wasteful positions, activities, and the people who live off of their fellow citizens. They just care about their own money. Shameful.
You want to know what is the most wasteful federal government thing that Congress never looks into? It's the span of control in DC headquarters offices (all agencies) and fake/duplicate employee groups (also in headquarters) to justify an executive position. I keep waiting for Congress to have GAO look into it. I've been waiting almost 20 years to hear it's happening.
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Old 09-22-2014, 02:32 AM
 
9,306 posts, read 3,866,476 times
Reputation: 13728
Quote:
Originally Posted by LauraC View Post
You want to know what is the most wasteful federal government thing that Congress never looks into? It's the span of control in DC headquarters offices (all agencies) and fake/duplicate employee groups (also in headquarters) to justify an executive position. I keep waiting for Congress to have GAO look into it. I've been waiting almost 20 years to hear it's happening.
I'm still waiting for the politicians to return the money they took during the government shutdown... They took the money but didn't provide the service's they were paid to do...
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