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Old 08-10-2014, 10:22 AM
 
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If there is such a thing as Trade Wars, then is there such a thing as labor wars? Are we in such a labor war now?

Apparently trade wars start, when one country does not give favorable trading conditions to another, forcing them to become competitors and not partners.

Can this same thing happen with labor? Now I dont think one government is openly sending their workers out take over the labor of another, but it seems they dont stop such actions by the individuals of their countries. So I guess that is like proxy labor war or a cold war.

Like in the USA, we take in H1B from India, but I dont believe Americans can as easily find comparable work in India. This is an inbalance. Is there some labor war going on?
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Old 08-10-2014, 11:02 AM
 
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Are there many Americans who want to work and live in India?

What's happening is labor arbitrage and lifestyle arbitrage. Capital goes south in search of cheaper labor and labor moves north in search of a better life.

This is not a war, but the natural effects of globalization. It creates equalization among countries. China was one of the poorest countries thirty years ago. They have since become a much more prosperous and powerful nation. They are much closer to the US than they were. This also means that there would be more disparity in the western world.

Wealth and opportunity are redistributed to the third world. The western middle class didn't earn these things. They were given these things when countries were set up in an unequal way.

Different countries set their own rules. It is also true that Americans can't be undocumented immigrants in other countries. That's because they don't tolerate it. We tolerate it here. It's a choice.
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Old 08-10-2014, 11:35 PM
 
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
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I guess you were born some time after the 60s? Read some US labor history; it's bloody.
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Old 08-11-2014, 08:40 AM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, Michigan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Costaexpress View Post
The western middle class didn't earn these things. They were given these things when countries were set up in an unequal way.
When countries were set up in an unequal way? Huh? And of course the middle class earned those things. There were still plenty of people residing on the lower end of the social stratification. Had middle class folks not made the effort, they would have never escaped poverty in most cases.

Doesn't mean they did not have significant advantages over people living in places like Saharan Africa, but still... Quit minimizing the hard work that previous generations invested to give us what we enjoy today. Many other nations had some of the same opportunities and advantages that we enjoyed, yet their wealth was largely squandered. Not everything was luck of the draw.
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Old 08-11-2014, 09:13 AM
 
Location: Someplace Wonderful
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I lay the current situation (the outsourcing of manufacturing ad now services) on the MBA folks who came into prominence in the late 70's early 80's.

Prior to that, if a manufacturer opened a factory in a foreign country, it was to sell product in that foreign locale.

It was in the early 80's that we began building factories offshore, and then importing the output back into the United States. At that time the labor cost differential was unarguable. Let's see. 50 cents a day versus 10 dollars an hour? No brainer. Despite the unfavorable changes in speed to market for those products, especially regarding resupply.

Add automation into the mix and viola! We have what we have today. Jobs off shore and permanent unemployed here at home. Not to mention the deliberate importing of cheap labor in the form of immigration, legal or otherwise.

But that's ok. At least the producers are getting fabulously wealthy, and the shareholders are happy with the crumbs they are being thrown.
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Old 08-11-2014, 04:07 PM
 
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Originally Posted by chuckmann View Post
Not to mention the deliberate importing of cheap labor in the form of immigration, legal or otherwise.
Tell that to the Left. I don't think it'll go well. You are not supposed to talk about immigration in a negative light.

Did immigration become this way or was it always this way. Look at American history. Immigration has always played a function of cheap labor supply. Immigrant rights are kind of the left wing version of right to work. It is the right to immigrate, and to vote once naturalized. But immigrants have always made great contributions because they were cheap labor. Two sides of the same coin.
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Old 08-11-2014, 10:12 PM
 
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Quote:
It was in the early 80's that we began building factories offshore, and then importing the output back into the United States. At that time the labor cost differential was unarguable. Let's see. 50 cents a day versus 10 dollars an hour? No brainer. Despite the unfavorable changes in speed to market for those products, especially regarding resupply.
I remember growing up in the 1930s, and how many toys etc., that had Made in Japan, etc. on them.

We have always imported things into the U.S. that were made in other countries. At the end of WWII we exported like crazy as we were about the only place that could make good of many types, until the war torn countries could rebuild. And a lot of low cost items were made in other countries and imported here marked as made in occupied Japan, etc.

Quote:
Add automation into the mix and viola! We have what we have today. Jobs off shore and permanent unemployed here at home. Not to mention the deliberate importing of cheap labor in the form of immigration, legal or otherwise.
How about all the jobs that have been outsourced from other countries. Example, there are 10 foreign owned companies that build automobiles in U.S. plus Fiat owns Chrysler/Jeep.

We moved factories that could not compete in the world marketplace overseas. It was move them overseas, and only needing to lay off half the workers, or go out of business and lay off everybody. These items were low priced, cheap labor intensive, and the jobs we imported were higher priced items and paid higher wages.

And the illegal immigration, is not about good solid middle class jobs. The illegals, mostly take unskilled lower wage jobs.
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Old 08-12-2014, 09:53 AM
 
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Originally Posted by oldtrader View Post
I remember growing up in the 1930s, and how many toys etc., that had Made in Japan, etc. on them.

We have always imported things into the U.S. that were made in other countries. At the end of WWII we exported like crazy as we were about the only place that could make good of many types, until the war torn countries could rebuild. And a lot of low cost items were made in other countries and imported here marked as made in occupied Japan, etc.



How about all the jobs that have been outsourced from other countries. Example, there are 10 foreign owned companies that build automobiles in U.S. plus Fiat owns Chrysler/Jeep.

We moved factories that could not compete in the world marketplace overseas. It was move them overseas, and only needing to lay off half the workers, or go out of business and lay off everybody. These items were low priced, cheap labor intensive, and the jobs we imported were higher priced items and paid higher wages.

And the illegal immigration, is not about good solid middle class jobs. The illegals, mostly take unskilled lower wage jobs.
You had toys made in Japan. What were those: ninja stars, toy katanas'?

I am sure we imported and will continue to import. But what about the things we can simply make and do for ourselves. We import IT workers when we have plenty of them here? We even import medical staff like nurses I hear. Those are not unskilled jobs. We have foreign car manufacturers here, but our domestic auto industry is falling by the wayside at the same time.
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Old 08-12-2014, 03:31 PM
 
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If the domestic car industry if falling by the wayside as you say, it is because the people are buying foreign cars. Would you rather that they build those foreign cars in the U.S. keeping an awful lot of people employed, or would rather they import all the cars they build in this country.
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Old 08-12-2014, 05:20 PM
 
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You had toys made in Japan. What were those: ninja stars, toy katanas'?
Actually my sisters had dolls and other girl toys made in Japan, cast iron banks shaped like bears, etc.

My brother and I had cap guns and western holster sets made in Japan, and many other boy toys. Just as many toys today are made in China and other countries, pre WWII popular toys were made in Japan, England, Germany, etc.

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We import IT workers when we have plenty of them here? We even import medical staff like nurses I hear.
We have IT workers here, but many, many of them are not qualified for many of the IT jobs. I know of several places that have been looking for IT people with specialized knowledge in one particular software program, that runs complete record systems, from accounting, to manufacturing, to warehousing, and ordering as need, plus everything else involved. How to get their records into SOX audit compliance, and much more. People qualified to run the IT department with this particular program able to handle the whole system, are very few and far between. I know several companies that have been looking for 2 years or more, and cannot find even one available. They need someone with years of experience, and had taken a lot of courses on the different parts of the program, and they are not around. Someone you would call an IT worker, is not qualified for the job. This is the same with many kinds of IT jobs. Just because someone has a degree in some form of computer fields, and knows how to do a spreadsheet or a small business program, does not qualify them for the job in any way. This is the thing Bill Gates and others have said. There may be lots of IT people around, but for specialized positions they have to find them anywhere in this country or other country, just anywhere they can find them.

As to hiring nurses from other countries, they do it because there are not enough women/men in this country that are qualified nurses, to fill the need, especially since Obamacare, is creating a need for nurses that is not being met.

On the other hand, we send qualified people all over the world to fill jobs in other countries.

Quote:
But what about the things we can simply make and do for ourselves.
We can make about anything possible to make in this country. But can we make it at a price that can compete with foreign made goods of similar quality. For many items, we simply can't make them at a price that can compete with goods made in other countries. If a company cannot make a profit, the company goes out of business and lays everyone off. By shipping the manufacturing of labor intensive small value goods overseas, half or a little more of the employees keep their jobs here in this country. Keep from making them overseas, and everyone gets fired plus the owners (stockholders) lose their entire investment, or make them overseas and half the people keep their jobs, and the owners continue to get a return on their investment. WHICH IS BEST FOR THE WORKING MAN/WOMAN THAT KEEP THEIR JOBS IF OUTSOURCING IS DONE, OR EVERYONE LOSES THEIR JOBS.

Quote:
Those are not unskilled jobs. We have foreign car manufacturers here, but our domestic auto industry is falling by the wayside at the same time.
You are losing the real train of thought. The domestic auto industry includes the cars made in the U.S. even if the owners live overseas. The domestic auto industry is doing great at this time.
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