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Someone asked to see the qualifications for subsidized child care - how does that mean I want a subsidy?
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So you are basically saying because the system allows it, it is OK for you to do it.
That exactly what I mean by being a leech.
A leach is someone that tries to get things they aren't entitled to. For example, if the gov provides a $10,000 subsidy for buying a certain electric car - does it make one a leech for buying that car (which they otherwise couldn't afford) due to the subsidy?
Heck, you could argue that anyone receiving anything from the government is a leach because they could work harder and not need that help. Right? If we all had that mindset, child tax credits, childcare tax credits, and deductions for dependents probably wouldn't exist. Taxes for those that don't have kids would probably go down too (no kids, no taxes going toward schools).
Last edited by eddiehaskell; 08-16-2014 at 01:34 PM..
You also don't realize just how expensive school is in many places these days. Sure I'd agree with you if it were as cheap as it was 30 years ago. The only problem is that, well, it isn't.
The last time I looked, public universities are around $13k/year including board. Community college is about $3k/year. This is somewhat expensive, but not unaffordable. Let's say a kid puts every dime on a loan - they probably come out with around $60k in debt.
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And I don't believe you would like to live in the kind of society that would result from a lack of education that would be the case because no one's parents were willing to help out.
Not believing parents are obligated to pay for college does not equal anti education.
The last time I looked, public universities are around $13k/year including board. Community college is about $3k/year. This is somewhat expensive, but not unaffordable. Let's say a kid puts every dime on a loan - they probably come out with around $60k in debt.
Not believing parents are obligated to pay for college does not equal anti education.
No, many are that much excluding board. A significant proportion are over $10,000 (public, instate), excluding board.
Child tax credits and childcare subsidies are not for the benefit of the adult, they're for the benefit of the child. Like it or not, you live in a country which does not believe adults areentitled to basic subsistence, but they do allow that children are.
The debate is over how much a child will eat (let's assume non-obese child) and what one plans on feeding them.
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It's not a debate, kids eat very nearly as much as adults. A sedentary 30 year old woman and an active 8 year old girl require the same calories, and an active eight year old boy requires more.
The last time I looked, public universities are around $13k/year including board. Community college is about $3k/year. This is somewhat expensive, but not unaffordable. Let's say a kid puts every dime on a loan - they probably come out with around $60k in debt.
Not believing parents are obligated to pay for college does not equal anti education.
Bwahahaha!!! Not even close. Room and board is going to run $9-$10K alone. Tuition at a state college, averages $9K/yr. A good state college will be more and that's in today's dollars.
Someone asked to see the qualifications for subsidized child care - how does that mean I want a subsidy?
It doesn't, per se. But you brought the issue up in post #367 and I suspect you wanted to know how lower income people manage because you want to claim you can cut your costs even more, just like you've been doing for virtually all the costs mentioned in this entire thread. If this is so, then indirectly, you want a subsidy, because subsidies are the answer to something you asked because you want to make it cheap.
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Originally Posted by eddiehaskell
A leach is someone that tries to get things they aren't entitled to. For example, if the gov provides a $10,000 subsidy for buying a certain electric car - does it make one a leech for buying that car (which they otherwise couldn't afford) due to the subsidy?
Very different things here. Electric car subsidies are in place to encourage environmentally-less-damaging ways of living. They are not in place because anyone thinks the individual receiving the subsidy actually needs it for basic living expenses. This is to say, the public is willing to pay for this for its environmental effects, not as a way of dealing with poverty.
Child care subsidies, OTOH, are in place to help the needy. When you take something meant for the needy and abuse it, then you are being a leech.
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Originally Posted by eddiehaskell
Heck, you could argue that anyone receiving anything from the government is a leach because they could work harder and not need that help. Right?
This is what is often known as "all or nothing, black and white thinking". To some extent there is some room for gray areas; however, it is usually possible to tell what the purpose of a given public program is by examining the public policies around it and what the public motivation was at the time the system was implemented. As long as you are using it as intended, it's ok. But when you take something put in place to prevent kids from being neglected and use it to choose to work less than society is expecting and deems reasonable when you have work options available, and when there are truly needy families that could use the assistance and might not be getting it because of people who use it when they don't need it, you are abusing the system and being very self-centered.
The system is a mixture of a documented criteria system that must be qualified for, and an honor system, in which it is to be understood that the system is in place for needy kids, only has so much public money going into it, and every one that signs up is one less "open seat". You are to some extent expected to have the ethical integrity to not use it if your family doesn't need it.
You could make the same argument when food samples are left out. It is expected that someone will take a sample in order to decide on whether they want to purchase the product or not. This is also an example of an honor system. Is it a matter of integrity that one will take a sample to decide on whether to buy the product or not, rather than just run around the store taking from all the sample trays and leaving to go to the next place and do the same thing and ultimately get a free lunch or snack without ever intending to buy anything no matter how much they like it.
Yes, the system technically allows for it; but it is expected that you will have the integrity to use it for its intended purpose. Same with public benefits. The mere fact that a policy allows for something does not always mean there is no ethical duty attached to it.
I'm wondering - are there not government provided subsidies that help with child care for low income families? I just looked it up and apparently in my state, a family of 3 with a monthly income of $3600 would be expected to pay no more than 10% of their monthly income for childcare regardless of how many children they have.
I assume most people already have a car capable of carrying a child.
A definition (ie, affordable/unaffordable) is less than meaningless. Just because DHS wishes you only had to spend 10% of your income on childcare doesn't make it magically happen.
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It’s also high for a family budget in percentage terms. The Department of Health and Human Services considers spending 10 percent of a family’s income on childcare to be the benchmark of what is affordable. Yet for single parents, the average cost of center-based infant care is more than 25 percent of the median income in every state. For a married couple, the cost for an infant is more than 10 percent of median income in 38 states an DC and the cost for a four-year-old exceeds that limit in 21 states and DC. The cost of putting an infant in full-time center care will eat up anywhere from 7 percent to 19 percent of a married couple’s income.
Note that this is median income. The cost of childcare isn't that flexible, and half of all people earn less than the median income, so half of people in 38 states pay more than 25% of their income to childcare.
And why do you assume most people have a car capable of carrying a child? Did you check the leg room in the back seat of your car before you bought it? Did you check that a rear facing convertible seat would fit and allow the passenger seat to be used? A small car usually can only fit an adult in the driver's seat, the child in the back, passenger seat pushed all the way forward, and other adult in the back too. Once you add a second child you need a car with leg room so the adult can. in the passenger seat with the rear facing seat behind them. You can't do that in a Honda Fit. You can't do it in any of the small sedans.
FWIW, I am working class and I believe YOU are the one who is utterly confused.
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Originally Posted by eddiehaskell
Sorry, but having kids requires sacrifices for many people. My parents certainly weren't playing tennis and sipping champagne at the country club every weekend. You seem to be utterly confused about how working class people raise children.
If one parent doesn't make too much - they should be able to quit their job. If the family still makes too much to qualify for any help...well, I wouldn't say they're that bad off.
That was not the crux of the question, the question was will it cost more, not can one afford it, no?
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If one chooses to make something hard...they'll have to deal with it.
Hard is picking oneself up, moving to some fantasy utopia that is cheap to live in yet has the same salary one is giving up, and never seeing family, because that will cost money.
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The debate is over how much a child will eat (let's assume non-obese child) and what one plans on feeding them.
That is not my position in the least, well that may just eat up for the 500 dollar savings in rent...almost.
Using moving across the country and seriously changing how one lives is not winning your argument. it kinda proves everyone else's point, that the increase in cost of children is so great, a" reasonable" way to minimize those costs is to utilize government services, move across the country, buy a car, illegally cram four people into a one bedroom and starve the kids. That is ameliorating those costs, not saying they do not exist. Why not just live in the car and become a freegan while we are at it?
No, many are that much excluding board. A significant proportion are over $10,000 (public, instate), excluding board.
I'm sure most kids receive grants/partial scholarships/financial assistance and whatnot. I looked up a few schools in my state and one of them is $13k/year and the other was $15k/yr including board. Community college is around $3k/year. This could potentially result in a 4 yr degree for $32-36k. I'm sure some schools are higher, but I looked at a few of the most popular universities around here. If a kid wants to go to UCLA or something, they should have the grades to earn their way in.
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Child tax credits and childcare subsidies are not for the benefit of the adult, they're for the benefit of the child. Like it or not, you live in a country which does not believe adults areentitled to basic subsistence, but they do allow that children are.
But they do benefit the adult. They benefit the adult by freeing up more of their money to provide for the child they chose to create. We could just say...you had a kid now work harder to provide for it or face imprisonment.
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