Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Sounds to me like a good incentive to learn a trade or go to college & make more money.
...and what is your advice if everyone learns a trade or has a college degree?
Quote:
Originally Posted by I_Like_Spam
In addition, I don't see how "income inequality" means anything. If Buffett or Koch or Soros are rolling in cash, or if they are barely getting by, I don't see how it affects me one way or another.
...because you're burying your head in the sand.
Wealth is relative. Buffet or Koch owning 50% of the wealth means there is only 50% of the wealth available to everyone else. Buffet's wealth absolutely affects yours. What makes him richer than you is the gap.
I don't get the irrational union hate ... do you love being treated like crap at the job? Do you love being a cog in the wheel? I'm not saying unions are perfect but come on you have to give credit where it's due.
I've concluded that most of the Union hate is Based out of pure jealousy and nothing else. I Thank god everyday for my Union.
I Enjoy having a living wage, paying taxes and buying things when I need them
The reason they came about in the first place was due to unsafe working conditions. If people are so naive to think that employers won't mistreat employees again if the powers that be look the other way, well, as they say, those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.
IMO, unions were absolutely necessary at the time they were created. But once they solved the immediate problems of safety and started getting unreasonable at the bargaining table for pay/benefits well above what the market would/should bear, then a breakdown was inevitable. See: steel, Pittsburgh.
Unions are an important force for as Lincoln said, "Labor is the true standard of value." Teddy Roosevelt also recognized the value of labor unions and stated, "It is essential that there should be organizations of labor. This is an era
of organization. Capital organizes and therefore labor must organize." That being said, it is the responsibility of unions to set a standard of decency, honesty and integrity. This means staying away from some of the ugly back-room dealing with political candidates that have agendas that are not in the best interest of labor and reflect poorly upon its members. The blind support for the Affordable Healthcare Act is a prime example. Labor unions largely do support quality, affordable healthcare for all people. However, this bill was poorly conceived and is not affordable for many union workers and in fact has led to a lower quality plan offered by many laborers' employers at a much higher cost. Unions should be demanding accountability from both their democratic and republican representatives and behave in a manner that sets a positive example for change.
I am retired so I have no dog in this race, but I can give you an explanation of my experience from a few years ago. I worked in both union and non-union shops doing the same type of work. The union shop was true hell on wheels.
Salaries, benefits - Pay was higher in the non union shop; however the difference was pretty minor and when contracts came due the union wages would catch up or move slightly ahead. The union claimed they pushed up wages for both union and non union shops but that was hard to see since salaries were pretty much average for the type of work and nationally few similar shops were unionized. Union benefits were much better regarding retirement, but that was a mixed blessing. It was difficult to make a direct comparison but union members could retire a couple of years earlier with comparable benefits. For the NU retirement was matching funds in a Fidelity 401k. For U, the union held the benefits and they could not be taken out except after retirement age. U members were trapped in their jobs because of the retirement.
Work environment - In the U shop there was constant strife between employees and management. It was hard to tell who was worse, management or the unions. Management would fight to protect their contractual rights and of course the union did the same thing. Every issue and minor workplace change was a source of strife. Employees were harmed in the process. Employees should have had a lot of job security but actually terminations were fairly frequent and very rare in the NU shop. The union did have a lot of ability to disrupt the management. Several good managers were fired or left due to the nasty environment. It took about 20% more employees to do the same level of work but the quality was less reliable.
Employees and Managers - The worst I ever saw on both sides for the U shop. Employees were typical U stereotypes who tried to do as little as possible and only did the contract minimums. Managers/supervisors were equally bad. The reputation of the shop was well known and only those who could not be hired elsewhere would work there.
Work Teams - Management was pretty sparse for the NU shop. Employees worked in self directed teams. The teams coordinated vacation days, hours and days of work and within limits could alter production procedures. Teams tended to operate on a democratic type basis. Some of the old timers were unhappy with that approach since by U rules they would have always had their choice of days off etc. Based on production, teams received bonuses which were very small compared with total compensation. Teams also were responsible for final hiring choices. Some team members were unhappy with the added responsibilities. Others felt they had an opportunity to improve the work environment and took pride in the production. A handful of workers left the NU shop for other jobs. Virtually no one ever left the U shop due to the retirement situation. Their retirement benefits were not portable.
For either shop, work is work and the hours of work and the pay were about the same. In some ways work was easier in the NU shop. Rules defined everything and if an employee was unhappy they could count on the union for support against any management decision. In the NU shop, rules were less clear. An employee might have to negotiate with coworkers. There was a grievance procedure but that was a step of last resort. Management would generally not become involved in team decisions unless there were legal issues involved such as discrimination.
Unions grew too powerful and business moved to where the cost of labor is cheaper.
Large powerful corporations have been forced into bankruptcy by union contracts,
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
