U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Economics
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 03-24-2015, 03:05 PM
 
1,029 posts, read 560,926 times
Reputation: 300

Advertisements

A flat general sales tax is less regressive than a flat income tax.


References to income taxes are generally understood to be taxes based upon net incomes; net incomes are generally understood to be gross revenues of cash or other items of value reduced by the expenditures for the purpose of acquiring revenues.

General sales taxes are generally based upon taxing gross values of cash or barter sales transactions of items. Generally intellectual property, real estate, and transferable financial instruments such as stocks, bonds or currency have not been considered as items subject to general sales taxes.

“Flat” rated taxes upon net incomes or gross sales transactions are calculated at a uniform rate the basis of those taxes.
What are the “real” or “actual” net incomes are subject to differences of opinions among accountants and among tax attorneys.
The extent of a taxes “regressive” attribute is dependent upon opinions regarding the consequential proportion of taxes paid by taxpayers relative to their net incomes.

Those on the “right” of our political spectrum are of the opinion that government’s social programs are unnecessary expenses and our “progressive” income tax rates are choosing losers and winners. Additionally believe that government social programs are unjustifiable expenses and all of this is of net economic detriment to our nation.

The general opinions of those on the “left” of our political spectrum is our income tax regulations currently are more favorable to wealthier segments of our population; thus unjustifiably reducing their taxable incomes proportion to their actual net incomes. The consequences of this all is our more regressive income tax systems. The regressive character of our current income tax systems are inadequately reduced by our current progressive income tax rates.
Additionally they believe that our government’s social programs are also inadequate and they’ are of net social and economic benefit to our nation.

I’m a populist; I contend that a flat general sales tax is less regressive than a flat income tax.

Respectfully, Supposn
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 03-24-2015, 03:29 PM
 
Location: The Triad (NC)
26,871 posts, read 57,924,091 times
Reputation: 29301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Supposn View Post
A flat general sales tax is less regressive than a flat income tax.
I think you have that backwards.

Quote:
References to income taxes are generally understood to be ...
General sales taxes are generally based upon ...
Nope. No half stepping now.

SALES tax requires having cash to spend REGARDLESS of source.
That will capture all (or nearly all) usual commerce.

INCOME tax requires a payroll job or verifiable trading of some sort.
That will capture only reported commerce.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-24-2015, 04:30 PM
 
7,846 posts, read 5,037,222 times
Reputation: 4025
No, you have it backwards.

The only way sales tax is less regressive than flat income tax is if essential items such as food and non-luxury clothing items, are exempted.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-24-2015, 06:55 PM
 
33,046 posts, read 20,731,344 times
Reputation: 8928
Quote:
Originally Posted by Supposn View Post
A flat general sales tax is less regressive than a flat income tax.


References to income taxes are generally understood to be taxes based upon net incomes; net incomes are generally understood to be gross revenues of cash or other items of value reduced by the expenditures for the purpose of acquiring revenues.

General sales taxes are generally based upon taxing gross values of cash or barter sales transactions of items. Generally intellectual property, real estate, and transferable financial instruments such as stocks, bonds or currency have not been considered as items subject to general sales taxes.

“Flat” rated taxes upon net incomes or gross sales transactions are calculated at a uniform rate the basis of those taxes.
What are the “real” or “actual” net incomes are subject to differences of opinions among accountants and among tax attorneys.
The extent of a taxes “regressive” attribute is dependent upon opinions regarding the consequential proportion of taxes paid by taxpayers relative to their net incomes.

Those on the “right” of our political spectrum are of the opinion that government’s social programs are unnecessary expenses and our “progressive” income tax rates are choosing losers and winners. Additionally believe that government social programs are unjustifiable expenses and all of this is of net economic detriment to our nation.

The general opinions of those on the “left” of our political spectrum is our income tax regulations currently are more favorable to wealthier segments of our population; thus unjustifiably reducing their taxable incomes proportion to their actual net incomes. The consequences of this all is our more regressive income tax systems. The regressive character of our current income tax systems are inadequately reduced by our current progressive income tax rates.
Additionally they believe that our government’s social programs are also inadequate and they’ are of net social and economic benefit to our nation.

I’m a populist; I contend that a flat general sales tax is less regressive than a flat income tax.

Respectfully, Supposn

It could also be argued that winners and losers are determined by the distribution of income, and that progressive income taxes merely have a modest flattening effect.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-24-2015, 07:25 PM
 
Location: The Triad (NC)
26,871 posts, read 57,924,091 times
Reputation: 29301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Opin_Yunated View Post
The only way sales tax is less regressive than flat income tax
is if essential items such as food and non-luxury clothing items, are exempted.
Hardly.

Here's a big one (there are others): Unreported and untaxed income.
It's harder to achieve on a regular basis than it used to be but it's still out there.

At the upper levels unreported/untaxed income is usually limited to the edges.
At the lower levels unreported/untaxed income is often the core of earnings.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-24-2015, 07:35 PM
 
33,046 posts, read 20,731,344 times
Reputation: 8928
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRational View Post
Hardly.

Here's a big one (there are others): Unreported and untaxed income.
It's harder to achieve on a regular basis than it used to be but it's still out there.

At the upper levels unreported/untaxed income is usually limited to the edges.
At the lower levels unreported/untaxed income is often the core of earnings.

Clearly we need a common core.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-24-2015, 07:37 PM
 
Location: Ohio
18,028 posts, read 13,251,134 times
Reputation: 13835
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRational View Post
I think you have that backwards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Opin_Yunated View Post
No, you have it backwards.
No, you do.

[quote=Opin_Yunated;38944591The only way sales tax is less regressive than flat income tax is if essential items such as food and non-luxury clothing items, are exempted.[/quote]

Misrepresentation
If the misrepresentation occurs on purpose, then it is an example of lying. If the misrepresentation occurs during a debate in which there is misrepresentation of the opponent’s claim, then it would be the cause of a straw man fallacy.

Name one foreign-State that has a sales tax and taxes food, housing, medical or legal.

List those entities in the US with a sales tax that currently tax
  • Housing
  • Medical
  • Legal
  • Food

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supposn View Post
A flat general sales tax is less regressive than a flat income tax.
It'd be easier to just cut-n-paste my posts, don't you think?

I'm glad you're finally starting to learn something.

Supposedly...


Mircea
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-25-2015, 05:17 AM
 
Location: Central Maine
2,868 posts, read 2,845,697 times
Reputation: 3976
I am NOT arguing with you when I say this BUT if we are to have a flat general sales tax in this nation, I am of the opinion that there are certain items that should NOT be taxed. Ie: groceries (obviously not including alcohol and cigarettes) medicine/prescriptions, clothing under $100.00. The basic necessities. And certain utilities like electricity, fuel oil, propane and natural gas. Don't make the burden harder on those trying to squeak by.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-25-2015, 06:18 AM
 
Location: Jamestown, NY
7,841 posts, read 6,925,596 times
Reputation: 13779
Quote:
Originally Posted by Opin_Yunated View Post
No, you have it backwards.

The only way sales tax is less regressive than flat income tax is if essential items such as food and non-luxury clothing items, are exempted.
Sales tax exemption of "essential" items is only less regressive than a sales tax on all goods and services.

A flat income tax is more regressive than a progressive income tax but less regressive than a sales tax.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-25-2015, 06:31 AM
 
3,751 posts, read 10,211,776 times
Reputation: 6560
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
No, you do.



Misrepresentation
If the misrepresentation occurs on purpose, then it is an example of lying. If the misrepresentation occurs during a debate in which there is misrepresentation of the opponent’s claim, then it would be the cause of a straw man fallacy.

Name one foreign-State that has a sales tax and taxes food, housing, medical or legal.

List those entities in the US with a sales tax that currently tax
  • Housing
  • Medical
  • Legal
  • Food



It'd be easier to just cut-n-paste my posts, don't you think?

I'm glad you're finally starting to learn something.

Supposedly...


Mircea
I'm only a passer-by. But there actually are some states that do have sales tax on (grocery) food purchases.

A number of states allow sales tax on (restaurant) food purchase.

I didn't realize this because most (maybe all) of the states I've lived in exempted grocery food purchases, and so I assumed that was nation-wide. Then I read/heard something somewhere and realized it wasn't true.

A quick google shows
* 31 states and DC exempt MOST food purchased for consumption at home from state sales tax
* Seven states tax groceries at lower rates: AR, IL, MO, TN, UT, VA and WV

Which seems to suggest that there are 12 states that tax groceries at normal sales tax rates.

Assuming of course, that google is up-to-date.

Anyway - housing/legal/medical is a whole nother matter. I believe Ohio was looking at expanding sales tax to include "professional services" within the last couple of years. I'm not sure if legal services was included in that expansion. I know many in the business community were unhappy with that, but the income tax reduction had to be paid for somehow.

Lastly - housing - depends on what type of housing it is. Mobile Homes (i.e. trailers) are generally subject to sales tax, the same as a vehicle, as in most places they fall in that defintion (titled, not deeded).
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Economics
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top