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If every student was educated to the level of the top 10% of graduating high school seniors, there would be no need for such a huge percentage of people to complete four year degrees. My opinion is that we rush students out of high school too quickly. The "finished product" of our public education system should be a lot closer to a bachelors degree than what a high school diploma is now. A high school diploma should not be given until a student is truly ready to work as an adult in our economy. If this costs extra money, so be it, but the K-12 infrastructure is much more suited for handling lagging students than universities.
As it is, an appalling amount of college credit is remedial. This is a bad deal for everyone. The student has to pay for it, the college has to water down the quality of their students, and employers have no way of identifying suitable candidates based on a credential.
I am a science professor at a selective private university, and I often see first year students that struggle with mathematical concepts that they should have mastered as middle schoolers. I can't imagine what non-flagship state colleges or community college profs have to deal with.
My proposal, to avoid the social stigma of being in you 20's and still in high school, is a public post-grad program, operated by public school districts, that continues to educate students until they are truly fit for college or jobs in the modern economy. That way, universities could truly focus on higher education, and students wouldn't have to cough up tons of cash to retake high school material. Furthermore, it would help alleviate degree inflation, as college standards could be raised significantly.
That might work, but a lot of people in this country can't do math very well (I'm one of them, and I have a master's in Education.) It's the way it's taught. Most people are taught to memorize, not conceptualize. It really messes them up down the road when math gets more complex. I think we really need to borrow another country's system for math education. Most people who "learn" math as children never find practical application for anything beyond basic arithmetic here. Plus, critical thinking skills, real ones such as real-world appications to problems, aren't widely taught. K-12 teachers typically spend only enough time on material for kids to pass the test.
Plus, teachers in a K-12 public school setting are dealing with special needs students who have been mainstreamed into the classroom, students who are several grade levels behind in basic academic skills, and aggressive students who have had criminal charges. A public school is like part prison and part mental institution; colleges don't have this problem. The kids who want to learn, do, and the kids who don't are not forced to go. The kids who are disabled are given reasonable accommodations and made to abide by everyone else's rules; the rules aren't changed for them, like in public school. If you ask me, we need to make our high schools like colleges again and stop this time-wasting maddness of trying to "educate every student" to certain low standards while sacrificing the quality of education for the majority.
You sure it didn't have anything to do with the rest of the developed world being f*****ng destroyed???
I'm pretty sure our middle class didn't rise up out of nothing because a couple of other countries lost the war. If that were the case, why didn't we have a middle class after WWI?
I'm pretty sure our middle class didn't rise up out of nothing because a couple of other countries lost the war. If that were the case, why didn't we have a middle class after WWI?
The entire industrialized world was flattened except the US post-WWII. That wasn't the case post WWI. By 1929 there was excess capacity globally.
I would probably be ok with subsidizing 2 years of trade school and community college and those that do well could use that as a spring board to a career or to further education at University level. Not sure I'd want to allow anyone and everyone a free ride to high priced universities
Have you heard of FASFA?
Pell Grants are large enough that the first two years are effectively free for those who are deemed to need the help (provided they go to a community college).
As to the OP.
School is free for those who 100% deserve to be there, but it costs for those who want to be there.
1) Most of the jobs today are well beyond what they teach you in high school or even in the lower two years of college. And many jobs require you to have a degree even if it's not related to the job. So college today is not just a luxury, it's a necessity.
2) Just because you make college free doesn't mean there is a law forcing people to go. There will still be a lot of people who don't want to go to college, or aren't able to deal with a college curriculum.
3) #s 1 and 2 will ensure that jobs won't become 'cheapened' by the number of people with college degrees. It might actually help more people get jobs. There are jobs out there, but so many of them demand such and such a degree, that they can't get filled, because people don't have those degrees.
4) Before the mid 80s, the state universities in California were free. That didn't seem to make degrees common place and there were still plenty of jobs for people.
5) People that move into higher paying jobs pay higher taxes. The buy houses. They buy cars. They spend money. All things that are good for the community, the state, and the US in general. It's good for the economy. And people making more money will not be on food stamps or welfare. People who make more money have savings accounts, checking accounts, and retirement accounts. This is a win/win for everyone.
6) You all forget that after WWII, the GI bill allowed more people to go to college than ever before, some of them for the first time in the histories of their families, and THAT was the driving force behind the making of our middle class. Before WWII, we didn't have a middle class. Notice how we are slowly losing our middle class now and a lot of that is because we have lost our manufacturing jobs and we are charging sky high rates to people who want to better themselves. I don't know if we can ever get our manufacturing jobs back, but we can sure do something about the education.
NOTE: You can't have free higher education without also having free trade schools. You just can't. If colleges today are made tuition free without trade schools being available, the whole thing will crash. People who don't want to go to college but want to advance, need somewhere to go for their opportunities. Again, it would be a win/win for every one.
If a degree confers greater earnings for the individual why should society pay the cost?
The avg college debt is less than the avg cost of a new car. Seriously what's the issue with paying for your own schooling when the person it benefits most is you?
Why should the day laborer pay for the gender studies major to have a college experience? Why should the farmer pay for the lawyers education?
They shouldn't anymore than they already do. We give pell grants to the poor, sub the cost of state schools and community colleges, we even give low cost loans without factoring in credit history or income potential so if you really want to study 13th century French painting styles you can. But the flip side is PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.
Heck yes I got help along the way with grants, merit scholarships, community colleges, and state schools, but I worked during school to keep my costs down, and didn't treat school as a resort experience.
The entire industrialized world was flattened except the US post-WWII. That wasn't the case post WWI. By 1929 there was excess capacity globally.
We were recovering from both WWI and everyone in the world was recovering from the 1918 flu epidemic. I think things were a lot worse than you say.
The countries decimated by WWI would include Germany, Poland, and France.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDrenter223
Have you heard of FASFA?
Pell Grants are large enough that the first two years are effectively free for those who are deemed to need the help (provided they go to a community college).
Provided you can get one.
Quote:
School is free for those who 100% deserve to be there, but it costs for those who want to be there.
And right there is the problem. "For those who deserve to be there." And how are they deemed to be deserving? Well, folks, it's easy. Just look at their high school records. Oh, you've been out of high school for 20 or more years. I'm sorry, you lose! You should have gone to college right after you graduated. Who cares if you want to better yourself? You're a working adult now. No college for you!
And just to add, I put myself through two years of community college and applied for every scholarship and grant available (no, I wasn't going to take out loans). I made between a 3.5 and 4.0 all through college and I never received a grant or a scholarship. Know what I was told? "Those grants and scholarships are mainly for underprivileged kids coming out of high school who want to go to college but can't afford to." Good for them, but where does that leave me?
We were recovering from both WWI and everyone in the world was recovering from the 1918 flu epidemic. I think things were a lot worse than you say.
The countries decimated by WWI would include Germany, Poland, and France.
Provided you can get one.
And right there is the problem. "For those who deserve to be there." And how are they deemed to be deserving? Well, folks, it's easy. Just look at their high school records. Oh, you've been out of high school for 20 or more years. I'm sorry, you lose! You should have gone to college right after you graduated. Who cares if you want to better yourself? You're a working adult now. No college for you!
And just to add, I put myself through two years of community college and applied for every scholarship and grant available (no, I wasn't going to take out loans). I made between a 3.5 and 4.0 all through college and I never received a grant or a scholarship. Know what I was told? "Those grants and scholarships are mainly for underprivileged kids coming out of high school who want to go to college but can't afford to." Good for them, but where does that leave me?
That is the normal progression, K-12 -> College, and that's how the system is set up. Those that choose to work at 18 change the whole dynamic for themselves. But there are still need blind schools and scholarships for those who would be in college in a country like Germany. That's what people don't get, free college isn't for everyone, it's for our brightest and most motivated, those who will go to college to make a difference, not end up at UofP or ITT.
A mid life course correction is true bootstraps type stuff, but if there is value in the education of an individual, then it's that students obligation to set up funding to better themselves.
After all, If you won't go into debt for you, why should we go into debt for you?
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkpunk
... I blame the job market on that with employers running lean during the recession and continuing to keep headcounts down.
...
They are only delaying if the employment market is truly bad. This is why some people go onto masters degrees far too early, just to delay entering the workforce and fearing unemployment upon graduation.
... You didn't need a degree to start, now you do. Far too many jobs ask for a degree as an entry-level position unless you are talking McJobs (simple cashiering at fast food or retail, simple delivery, simple stocking, etc.) Even mail sorters at companies require a bachelor's degree. We also don't really see trades for the most part until AFTER age 18 nowadays either with all the cuts schools have to make these days.
Do you hire many people? I regret that you are ill informed / out of touch (maybe an educator!).
I hire for my 3 businesses and do college recruiting (worldwide) for my tech job.
1) degrees not required for all jobs, in fact, there are many making 6 digits without setting foot in higher edu.
2) experience in field is extremely lacking (folks don't seem to understand that USA EDU is NOT a key to a j-o-b. ) Many other countries EDU has partnered with employers so the day you graduate you have already been 'experienced' / hired / working on job related projects and equipment (for previous 2 yrs). i.e. you are employable. (not trainable... no need for that).
3) If you are WAITING for EDU or a skilled trade to come and find you.... keep waiting, we don't employ that type. They are only suited for academia. (false hope (ZERO knowledge of a 'realistic-plan').
4) Results... that is what employers are looking for.
If you ask me, we need to make our high schools like colleges again and stop this time-wasting maddness of trying to "educate every student" to certain low standards while sacrificing the quality of education for the majority.
I completely agree but the opposite trend is taking place with districts like San Francisco Unified making Algebra 2 a basic graduation requirement for everyone.
"The graduating class of 2014 is the first required to complete a college-prep course load, known as the A-G sequence that California's state universities require for admission, in order to get a diploma from a San Francisco high school."
"The data showed that African American and Latino students were disproportionately affected by the new graduation requirements.
Just 32 percent of the 255 black seniors and 45 percent of their Latino classmates are on track to graduate"
"Yet she didn't want the district to back off the new requirements, which will push all students to take college-prep courses."
After all, If you won't go into debt for you, why should we go into debt for you?
Remember, I may be an older adult halfway through my working life, not starting at one. So if I reserve the right to not take out a hundred thousand dollar loan that I may not be able to pay back, how does that hurt you?
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