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Please tell me how my claim doesn't hold water for that married couple.
I just did. A married couple making $30k takes home almost $2k per month after taxes and health insurance, which in low cost of living areas like rural Georgia is enough to where any claim that is isn't a living wage fails.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Led Zeppelin
In rural SC or Georgia, rent or mortgage on a decent apartment or house in a blue collar neighborhood is about 700-800 a month. Gas to get to work? Varying between 100 and 200 a month if they drive a 30mpg compact and doubled if they have two cars or a long commute.... So.... there's half of the net takehome right there. Kick in 400 a month if they self-insure for 80/20 or 300 a month if the company pays some.... and you're now up to 1300 app. Add a car payment or two, utilities, babysitters, day care and or private school, food and 10 percent saved for retirement or emergency funds..... life insurance, car insurance, property and vehicle maintenance and NO.....
As I already explained, they'd take home almost $2k per month after health insurance premiums, assuming approximate median healthcare premium in Georgia. I specifically mentioned a couple, where are you getting all this private school and daycare stuff? You said $15/hour wasn't a living wage, I pointed out a couple could live on $15/hour, and now you're talking about babysitters and two people working? If you'd like to amend your claim about living wage to be specific to a family of certain size or pools of people making less than $15/hour fine, but that is for another post.
Two people at $15/hour = $30 an hour, which clearly wasn't what I was talking about. One person working a job for $15/hour can support a married couple. Your expense exaggerations and worst case assumptions don't prove otherwise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Led Zeppelin
5 bucks an hour is NOT a living wage. In today's world, it's subsistence living with no margin for major expenses, even in a place like rural Georgia. You're one breakdown or one medical bill away from bankruptcy.
Lots of people living on $15/hour type wages who own a car, smart phone, sleep in an air conditioned house, and get 200 channels on their TV would prove this is bunk. They live.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Led Zeppelin
And believe me.... someone who self insures for 80/20 in Georgia and has a lot of exiting medical bills or uncovered problems, can EASILY be spending half their net income of 15 an hour on healthcare costs. And then if their kids get sick.... I was spending an extra 2 grand a year on my daughter between the ages of 2 and 7.
Well if anecdotal evidence is all we need then any case of someone living on $15/hour in Georgia would prove you wrong.
Little off topic but where do you guys work that you pay $300 for an 80/20 plan? Sounds like self insurance to me. I've worked for 4 employers in my 9 year working career.
Job #1 (Major retailer) $28/mo for an HMO. $15 dollar copays and $50 for emergency room.
Job #2 (blue chip monster) $60/mo HMO (same as above)
Job #3 (state govt) $90 month for HMO same as above
Job #4 ( blue chip monster) $7 month for 80/20 with $600 deductible/$3200 OOPM. Or $130 for HMO. Same as above.
Little off topic but where do you guys work that you pay $300 for an 80/20 plan? Sounds like self insurance to me. I've worked for 4 employers in my 9 year working career.
Job #1 (Major retailer) $28/mo for an HMO. $15 dollar copays and $50 for emergency room.
Job #2 (blue chip monster) $60/mo HMO (same as above)
Job #3 (state govt) $90 month for HMO same as above
Job #4 ( blue chip monster) $7 month for 80/20 with $600 deductible/$3200 OOPM. Or $130 for HMO. Same as above.
You must be about 25-30 years old with no health problems. I'm guessing you're paying for just you?
I pay 400 a month for my company provided plan... in South Carolina. This is average. My employer kicks in about 800 a month. 80/20 non-smoker. I wouldn't get a comparable plan on the exchange for the same amount of money. It'd be a lot more.
Last edited by Led Zeppelin; 11-07-2015 at 08:55 PM..
I just did. A married couple making $30k takes home almost $2k per month after taxes and health insurance, which in low cost of living areas like rural Georgia is enough to where any claim that is isn't a living wage fails.
As I already explained, they'd take home almost $2k per month after health insurance premiums, assuming approximate median healthcare premium in Georgia. I specifically mentioned a couple, where are you getting all this private school and daycare stuff? You said $15/hour wasn't a living wage, I pointed out a couple could live on $15/hour, and now you're talking about babysitters and two people working? If you'd like to amend your claim about living wage to be specific to a family of certain size or pools of people making less than $15/hour fine, but that is for another post.
Two people at $15/hour = $30 an hour, which clearly wasn't what I was talking about. One person working a job for $15/hour can support a married couple. Your expense exaggerations and worst case assumptions don't prove otherwise.
Lots of people living on $15/hour type wages who own a car, smart phone, sleep in an air conditioned house, and get 200 channels on their TV would prove this is bunk. They live.
Well if anecdotal evidence is all we need then any case of someone living on $15/hour in Georgia would prove you wrong.
And if you want to amend your statement to say 15 an hour is a living wage for a single kid living at home with no bills, or a couple with no kids and free health insurance, then that's fine too. But that's another post.
You didn't explain anything really... "already" or otherwise. You must be wanting to use an optimum example such as a couple living with the parents and paying no bills, or a military couple or government employee who has no HC deductions. You say I'm making worst case assumptions? I don't think so. Half the country makes 30K a year or less. And About 30 percent of the country is on means-tested poverty programs. These numbers add up to the reality of 15 bucks an hour. And it's not the reality that all these people take home 2K a month after paying for health care.
Look at the Living Wage Calculator for Jenkins Country, Georgia, which is rural. http://livingwage.mit.edu/counties/13165 Even in this rural area of north Georgia, a childless couple needs to make at least 29K a year NOT INCLUDING taxes to have a living wage - almost $4000 a year MORE than what you call a living wage in rural Georgia for a year. That 4K a year equates to a lot of necessities that potentially can't be paid for. It equates to living with no margin for emergencies or savings.
I'm describing common reality for people with a kid or two, or who need two cars or who have a load of debts or child support payments. Or people who have all the above. And keep in mind, this could be TWO people earning 8 bucks an hour, or one person making 15. How much disposable income do you really think they have? How much in savings? I gave you some figures just as applicable to a childless couple BEFORE I kicked in babysitting and private schools and such. That STILL isn't living wage for a married couple with no kids. Just go back to my original statement. Anybody else making 15 an hour would be taking home about 2K a month net NOT INCLUDING health benefits deductions - depending on what state they lived in and what withholding they claimed. A decent house is going to cost them half their net, off the top. Utilities, car payments (2?), all insurance, food, emergency fund, saving, maintenance, student loans.... could easily bring it up to and over 2K a month.
Then imagine child support payments, existing debts... etc. No margin for surprises.
A living wage ought to be defined as basic needs plus savings and a cushion. You gotta pay yourself first.
Last edited by Led Zeppelin; 11-07-2015 at 09:11 PM..
Clearly your ridiculous absolute claim that $15 isn't enough to live on is false. Sure there are many situations where $15/hour isn't sufficient but next time you feel like proclaiming people can't live on $15/hour just come back to your own post here and save us the trouble.
Opponents say that increasing the minimum wage to $15/hr will increase unemployment and trigger inflation. In those cities and states who have increased minimum wages, there has been little or no sign of either.
As was already pointed out, right now it's not at $15, but $11....and it appears restaurants are hiring fewer workers.
I don't understand how people think that raising the price of labor won't cause employers to use less of it.
When they raise the price of gas, do you not find ways to use less? Maybe you're screwed in the short run because you bought a big SUV and have a long commute. But you're going to be looking for ways to cut your fuel consumption over the long run (i.e. when you buy your next car, it'll be more efficient. Maybe you stay on top of keeping the tires properly inflated in the short run). This is exactly what Americans did with the fuel price run ups of recent years (until the last year). They didn't cut back right away, but growth in gasoline consumption slowed down and even went down for several years (until prices dropped over the last year).
The same thing will happen with big minimum wage hikes. Employers will find ways to automate those jobs away.
Last edited by mysticaltyger; 11-08-2015 at 01:03 AM..
You honestly believe that $15 an hour hurts a business owner when they are pulling in six figures? If you can afford to hire one employee, you are making well over a $15 an hour salary.
Yes, it does. Most people who say this stuff have no concept of running a business. 85% of people are W2 earners, which is why so many have attitudes like yours. They seem to think all business owners have money falling at them from out of the sky.
$15 an hour does NOT make sense in Seattle because it isn't a living wage unless you ride a bike and live in a flop house with six roommates sharing utilities and rent. $15 an hour isn't even a living wage in a small town place like Waycross, Georgia, where rent is probably half what it is in a city like Seattle.
The core problem in places like Seattle is THEY DO NOT BUILD ENOUGH HOUSING. The lack of housing supply puts pressure on home prices and rents, which means he lowest paid people are outbid for scarce housing supply. If these high cost cities really wanted to help lower income people, the best thing they could do would be to build more housing.
sounds like they dont understand or refuse to... but hiring an employee costs more than just the hourly pay... they pay a lot of taxes and benefits on behalf of the employee...
it isnt just tacking on $7/hr more to raise it from $8/hr to $15 that it costs them... $15/hr would cost them $20/hr or so
From the late 1930s when it was instituted until 1968 the minimum wage would be raised every 2-4 years to keep up with inflation. It was not controversial. It would catch purchasing power up with inflation for a few years, until the next increase was necessary.
from 1968 to 1981 it was raised less frequently, fell behind inflation a little bit but not too much - the bigger problem was that inflation was too rapid, but it still rose relatively close to inflation.
From 1981 to today it's only been raised about once very 8-10 years and does not even come close to keeping pace with inflation.
A lot of people here are using Econ 101 homework principles instead of real world context.
We have an inflationary monetary policy and average inflation of 2-3% per year, but complete wage stagnation.
For those of you against minimum wage increase, answer me two questions - 1) tell me in what world does it make sense to inflate the money supply but be SO dead set against raising the minimum wage, which is the only inflationary tool we have for wages? Many of you seem to be acting like the price of goods and services are as static as wages!!
2) For those people saying why not raise it to $200 an hour or whatever, I'll do you one better. Why don't we lower it to $2.50 an hour? That would put us at almost half of Mexico's minimum wage, which is approximately $4.00/hr. Maybe then we'll bring all the jobs back.
I'm not against an increase, but I am against an increase to $15 per hour. 1968 was a high water mark for minimum wage purchasing power in the U.S. Even adjusted for inflation, $15 is well above that high water mark.
Adjusted for inflation, the federal minimum wage peaked in 1968 at $8.54 (in 2014 dollars).
The best thing expensive cities can do to help the poor and the middle class is to BUILD MORE HOUSING!!! High real estate costs are what make the cost of living high in these cities. And it's often rich NIMBYs who will patronize the poor with minimum wage hikes on one and while fighting new development tooth and nail on the other.
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