Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
we have been liquidating all our real estate holdings in nyc the last decade so every time a property is sold the gains force us on the amt .
so i see first hand how those marginal tax rates really do not apply to most high earners . i wish those taxes were just 15% but they are not because you have two tax systems in place all the time .
most folks do not realize their taxes are automatically run on both systems since they are only on the marginal rate system . ..
Last edited by mathjak107; 12-14-2015 at 07:01 AM..
Yeah, I'm kind of assuming you won't make the equivalent of $11.50/hr (adjusted for inflation) and always live alone from 18-65. You are correct, if that was how your entire working career is it would be considered pretty close to hand to mouth.
Many people make that small amount now who used to make much more. Why assume you start at $11.50 at 18 and always keep moving up? Many high paying jobs now are eliminated, many small business owners were put under by behemoths like Walmart and now work for them.
My brother was an auto mechanic his entire life. Savings were restricted by child care payments and paying for an apartment too after his wife left him for another guy, but he was frugal and was always self-sufficient. At 56 he had to have back surgery and now can't work as a mechanic anymore, so he works at a big chain auto retail store as a clerk, and maybe, maybe makes $11.50 an hour. Probably less, and he's 60 now.
The point is there are many regular people, hard working people, who have a hard time making it despite doing the bet they knew how to do.
Many people make that small amount now who used to make much more. Why assume you start at $11.50 at 18 and always keep moving up? Many high paying jobs now are eliminated, many small business owners were put under by behemoths like Walmart and now work for them.
My brother was an auto mechanic his entire life. Savings were restricted by child care payments and paying for an apartment too after his wife left him for another guy, but he was frugal and was always self-sufficient. At 56 he had to have back surgery and now can't work as a mechanic anymore, so he works at a big chain auto retail store as a clerk, and maybe, maybe makes $11.50 an hour. Probably less, and he's 60 now.
The point is there are many regular people, hard working people, who have a hard time making it despite doing the bet they knew how to do.
One, I simply said it was possible in some areas of the US, not everywhere and two if he had child payments that would qualify as at least a family of 2, so the bottom of middle income would be $34k/yr or $16.35/hr.
My main point was one single person (with no dependents) earning $24k/yr temporarily can live, survive, and even save a little where I live. If you are talking about always earning that for their entire career I do concede that is pretty much hand to mouth.
One, I simply said it was possible in some areas of the US, not everywhere and two if he had child payments that would qualify as at least a family of 2, so the bottom of middle income would be $34k/yr or $16.35/hr.
My main point was one single person (with no dependents) earning $24k/yr temporarily can live, survive, and even save a little where I live. If you are talking about always earning that for their entire career I do concede that is pretty much hand to mouth.
That's the bottom of the middle class as defined by the OP's links: 1 person household making $24k/yr. It wouldn't be easy, but it's possible to survive on that income. Looks like the studies back up your point.
I'm sure some people are getting ready to click that reply button to say "but no, a million dollars per year is middle class where I live, since I and all my neighbors earn 7 figures and basic mansions here cost $3-4 million!"
Location doesn't matter when defining class. If it did, then since we have 35,000 cities in the US (give or take), then we'd have 35,000 definitions of "middle class".
One, I simply said it was possible in some areas of the US, not everywhere and two if he had child payments that would qualify as at least a family of 2, so the bottom of middle income would be $34k/yr or $16.35/hr.
My main point was one single person (with no dependents) earning $24k/yr temporarily can live, survive, and even save a little where I live. If you are talking about always earning that for their entire career I do concede that is pretty much hand to mouth.
This is however the new reality, many Americans are making salaries like that now. Well-paying blue collar jobs were the mainstay of the middle class, now the new trend for the future for non-college bound students is service jobs, retail, etc. Without good-paying non-degree jobs,there will never be a middle class again, not the way it was.
This is however the new reality, many Americans are making salaries like that now. Well-paying blue collar jobs were the mainstay of the middle class, now the new trend for the future for non-college bound students is service jobs, retail, etc. Without good-paying non-degree jobs,there will never be a middle class again, not the way it was.
I'm not sure of your point here. Again, I simply showed that it was possible to live at what the study showed as the very bottom of the "middle income" threshold with some room to breathe. I'm not dismissing your point, but it's not at all relevant to my statement earlier.
As an aside, my wife, who moved with me 3x in 3 years and does not have a college degree had a job making atleast 24k /$11.50/hr each time and received raises within a year in all 3. Funny thing is, each job she took was in a new state and in a new area (retail, banking, admin). So she has managed just fine despite the doom and gloom put out about having no college degree and she is a millennial .
Two full-time adults making 24k/yr each is 48k/yr. You would be just fine living where I am living with that income. You wouldn't be in a brand new 2.5k sq ft house, driving new cars, etc. But you could definitely own a decent home. I just feel like we have come to expect what in the past was considered an upper middle class lifestyle for anyone who works. If that is our expectation then yes, the middle class is most certainly disappearing.
People treat numbers like that as if they were real. They are not real, and never have been. A house is worth a place to live and keep your stuff. In that sense, my house is worth the same as it was in 1994 when I bought it. In another sense it is worth more because I have done extensive upgrades and remodeling, and I like it better now than I did in 1994. It has no cash value until I sell it. At that point the cash will have a numeric value and the house will be worthless, because somebody else will own it.
Stocks and bonds are the same. Their value is a fiction. Just ask my brother how much his WaMu and Chrysler bonds were worth.
Most people have no concept of value. They swallow numbers like they are real.
yeah, they're fictional until you need a place to live
at which point they become very, very real.
Take the value of your house today, look at your income today, and try to calculate how to save 20% of its value, using only wage income, and subtracting $1k/mo for rent.
... most folks do not realize their taxes are automatically run on both systems since they are only on the marginal rate system...
...unless you live in Silicon Valley. Many people are in AMT all the time because the local compensation system has been heavily tilted towards non-qualified stock options. My understanding is that is a west-coast and more specifically a Silicon Valley compensation paradigm. Most older line corporations in the East gear their compensation system differently.
Most people also don't understand that corporations have AMT as well.
to make matters worse if i trip it one year because of a large capital gain , i end up paying in so much in state and local taxes when we file that the following year the deductions for it trip it again and even with a normal income i get hit all over again .
My main point was one single person (with no dependents) earning $24k/yr temporarily can live, survive, and even save a little where I live. If you are talking about always earning that for their entire career I do concede that is pretty much hand to mouth.
I lived on that for a year with my unemployment check as my only source of cash flow. I had plenty of money but decided I'd see if I could do it on the unemployment check. My home was paid for. My cars were paid for. I was getting Obama assistance covering 2/3 of my COBRA health insurance. I had about $12K of property taxes, condo fees, and auto/home insurance. I did it but I had to be extremely careful with spending. It was a good learning experience. I now have a much better sense for what I need for cash flow in my retirement. ...and it's a number quite a bit north of $24K/year.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
. 