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Old 04-10-2016, 10:24 PM
 
18,737 posts, read 8,350,151 times
Reputation: 4113

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Quote:
Originally Posted by leastprime View Post
He who has the greater lobby wins.
I agree. Tariffs are politically focused protections for certain industries, always creating losers in their path. They are in essence a tax that we the people end up paying for the resultant higher priced goods.

Instead of tariffs we need to make it easier to do business here. Reduced taxes and regulations on business. That way our businesses can more easily thrive within our borders, creating more jobs for our people. Without raising the costs on our goods.
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Old 04-10-2016, 10:31 PM
 
3,205 posts, read 2,603,167 times
Reputation: 8565
Quote:
Originally Posted by andywire View Post
No. This is a free country. I can purchase my steel from where ever I choose. Producers do not have to be coerced into fattening the coffers of a bunch of greedy, whinny, self serving CEO's than cannot compete worth a damn. Nor can I be forced to enrich the already outrageously rich, coddled and well protected investor/non producer class.

This tariff is a blatant violation of the free market, and motivates me to shop around even more for savings.
Oh, sorry, did someone do something against the will of your free market God?

Somehow you consider your 'right' to a global free market to be inviolable, but you don't give too shakes about the 'rights' of millions of your fellow countrymen to a living wage.

Classic andywire.
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Old 04-10-2016, 11:01 PM
 
Location: Myrtle Creek, Oregon
15,293 posts, read 17,575,011 times
Reputation: 25225
You are correct, punitive tariffs are nonsense, and restrain trade. We need to return to the era of import tariffs on everything. That's how the US government was originally funded, and it gives domestic businesses an incentive to stay right here. A punitive tariff just hurts domestic industry. You have contracts you have to meet, and a sudden tripling of material costs can be ruinous.
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Old 04-10-2016, 11:14 PM
 
Location: Ruidoso, NM
5,667 posts, read 6,550,176 times
Reputation: 4817
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoonose View Post
Cheaper goods allow us all to save more and/or buy more/other goods.
In the real world our incomes have been depressed a lot more than we saved, plus we got a load if fiscal and private debt and low infrastructure investment.

The only people who made out are a handful in the 99.9%ile plus category, and they made out like bandits.

The problem is the persistent trade *deficit*... not trade.
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Old 04-10-2016, 11:50 PM
 
Location: Prescott Arizona
1,649 posts, read 1,000,106 times
Reputation: 1591
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoonose View Post
Buy American sounds good.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QO7VUklDlQw

Aside from recession has our GDP significantly dropped since 1981?

And it hasn't because of a number of factors.

Mechanization.

New technologies.

Importation is big business.

Cheaper goods allow us all to save more and/or buy more/other goods.

All of those things you mentioned only add to wealth inequality. They make the ultra rich even richer, which looks good on paper when computing averages and gross figures, but in reality they have only helped destroyed this country for the average Joe.

The poor and middle class lived better in 1981 than they do now. To say otherwise would be to deny reality. I grew up in the 80's. My dad was a cabinet maker, and my mom was a secretary. My family went on week long vacations to places like Disney world, Hawaii, and New York when I was a kid. We lived in a 2500 sq ft home a nice in Seattle suburb. I know accountants, engineers and lawyers that don't live that good these days.

And if you think that buying imports doesn't lower the Real or nominal GDP, you must have failed Macro. Trade is only good for the GDP when it's two sided, which it isn't. The United States is a punching bag when it comes to trade. Our GDP would explode if we brought jobs back to this country and put an end to our massive trade deficits.

Last edited by jrt1979; 04-11-2016 at 12:04 AM..
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Old 04-11-2016, 01:58 AM
 
34,258 posts, read 19,231,364 times
Reputation: 17237
Sheesh. OK folks, lets try and understand what the difference between a punitive tariff, and a tariff based upon the agreements between countries.

The steel one is a great example. Lets try and make a simple analogy.

Lets say me and you make widgets in a town, and no one else can due to the expense of entry. The cost of manufacturing the widget is $1, and we both sell for around $1.10.

I become buddies with the mayor, and he agrees that if I move my plant a block over all the utilities for it will be free, and he has a deal to waive all the taxes for just me.

My costs are now $.50. But wait theres more!

The city also agrees to cover half my labor costs if I just hire more people. Done! I double my employees, and start producing like crazy because...drum roll....you cannot produce for less then I sell now. I need the employees to cover your sales I will take.

Im making money. You arent. it has nothing to do with "Free market" nonsense. It has to do with my costs being subsidized by the local government so that I can gain market share, and then raise prices once I own most of it.

Which by the way is a pretty good analogy of what the Chinese government did for steel. This is not about the "Free market" of which realistically there are very few examples of, but rather of a government (China in this case) using its power and money to create unfair competition.

A punitive tariff would be us establishing a tariff for no reason at all.

A tariff based upon our agreement that China won't engage in such practices, is a way of balancing the unfair actions of China.
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Old 04-11-2016, 04:04 AM
 
Location: North of Canada, but not the Arctic
20,900 posts, read 19,372,836 times
Reputation: 25389
Do you know why Chinese steel is cheaper (without the tariff) than American steel?
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Old 04-11-2016, 04:35 AM
 
34,258 posts, read 19,231,364 times
Reputation: 17237
Quote:
Originally Posted by Retroit View Post
Do you know why Chinese steel is cheaper (without the tariff) than American steel?
Chinese steel is literally selling below the cost to make it by Chinese companies. Not figuratively. LITERALLY. They are selling it at a loss.

And by doing so they are creating a massive industrial base. This is in the Chinese governments interests, not so much for the rest of the world.

As to how?

Subsidized electricity, subsidized loans, subsidized property purchases, etc etc etc. This 236% tariff was based upon this sort of data. It wasn't just guessed at.

From:
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-ch...0HD2LC20140919
Quote:
Most of the subsidies - largely from local governments - were channeled to the steel, cement and property sector in the form of cash, tax rebates or support for loan repayments. The reasons given ranged from research and development to support for government environmental priorities.
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Old 04-11-2016, 04:50 AM
 
4,231 posts, read 3,531,500 times
Reputation: 2207
Quote:
Originally Posted by greywar View Post
Chinese steel is literally selling below the cost to make it by Chinese companies. Not figuratively. LITERALLY. They are selling it at a loss.

And by doing so they are creating a massive industrial base. This is in the Chinese governments interests, not so much for the rest of the world.

As to how?

Subsidized electricity, subsidized loans, subsidized property purchases, etc etc etc. This 236% tariff was based upon this sort of data. It wasn't just guessed at.

From:
Steel industry on subsidy life-support as China economy slows | Reuters
I sometimes look on Chinese stuff, mostly steel, on Ebay and Alibaba and it seems there is no way these guys are profiting from this

And if they are then probably government is building their plant, paying their utilities, workers....etc.

This is the only option.

Not even India or other SE Asia countries can compete with that

But their plan of bankrupting other steel producers may happen.

Europe is already feeling the pain and now it's on us.

And most of people i talk say quality is not bad either.

It's just as good as any.
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Old 04-11-2016, 07:37 AM
i7pXFLbhE3gq
 
n/a posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by rugrats2001 View Post
Oh, sorry, did someone do something against the will of your free market God?

Somehow you consider your 'right' to a global free market to be inviolable, but you don't give too shakes about the 'rights' of millions of your fellow countrymen to a living wage.

Classic andywire.
The really funny thing is that andywire's position is completely hypocritical and shows he's totally fine with not having a free market so long as it benefits him.

It's just fine to violate free market principles when it's China flooding the market with goods he wants at below cost. It only becomes an issue when the US takes note of what's happening and does something about it.

What do you think andywire's position would be if the Chinese government started subsidizing the manufacture of whatever it is he produces and flooded the market with goods that cost 1/3 as much as his? Somehow I suspect his position on dumping might be a wee bit different then.
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