Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I don't buy the nonsense about the declining earning power of the middle class. I see bigger, better cars, bigger houses with 25 cuft refrigerators, big screen TVs, cellphones, vacation trips to Disney. I spend a lot of time in our national parks. Hardly anyone uses a tent anymore. Instead it is big RVs with microwaves and A/C. When I grew up we could not afford A/C. I lived in Washington, D.C, heat and humidity with a fan in my room and I felt lucky to have my own room carved out of the attic. My after school activities were kick ball in the street. Christmas was a toy and clothing for the next year.
Sometimes it seems that the grandparents had it easy, but what did they have? They had a house, often a car, but they could not afford to do anything or go anywhere. They had a telephone but long distance calls were brief and for calling close relatives on holidays.
What do you want to bet those bigger and better refrigerators, big screen TV's, vacations, etc. were all purchased with credit cards. Years ago most people lived within their means, not so much these days.
Middle class wages have (barely) kept up with inflation. The real problem is that various aspects of middle class life have outpaced inflation significantly.
And it's not cell phones. If we consider what cell phones can do, we are getting better bang for our communications buck than our grandparents by a long shot.
It's not TVs either. 600 buys you a name brand 60 inch TV at Wal-Mart. No-name brands are cheaper. Inflation-adjusted that is dirt cheap and much cheaper than what my grandparents paid for a TV 1/3 of the size and 1/10 the quality and longevity.
I suspect it is more than personalities. That is the way people were raised and lived. A high percentage of the population spent their entire life within a few miles of where they were born. WWI and WWII broke that pattern, but before the Interstate system, travel was a slow and perilous adventure. Even when I was young, the Interstate system was marginal in many western States. I can still remember my parents driving us across Kansas on 2 lane farm roads.
Airfare is dramatically cheaper and more convenient. Roads, as you mentioned, are generally superior to roads from fifty years ago or more.
One thing to remember about living your whole life in the same general area, is that many, many smaller towns and rural areas were once economically viable. My grandparents did spend most of their life in the same area, and never faced the employment problems that there are today in the area.
Jobs are consolidating in fewer and fewer geographic areas, leaving many parts of America nonviable for making a middle class living.
Middle class wages have (barely) kept up with inflation. The real problem is that various aspects of middle class life have outpaced inflation significantly.
And it's not cell phones. If we consider what cell phones can do, we are getting better bang for our communications buck than our grandparents by a long shot.
The reason wages has not kept up is that the statistics factor in the rising standards of living. Some of the charts indicate that "real" wages have barely kept up with inflation. Clearly something is missing because the middle class standard of living is way higher than 20, 30, 40 or 50 years ago when the charts show we stopped progressing.
Sure part is buying on credit but those bills come due. Mortgages and auto loans have been around forever. We also hear that the middle class can no longer afford to save for retirement. When did that ever happen? Before CT scans, and cardiac bypass, and cancer drugs, we ate bacon, smoked cigarettes and died young, often before retirement.
.....
One thing to remember about living your whole life in the same general area, is that many, many smaller towns and rural areas were once economically viable. ......
One reason they were economically viable is the economy was retarded and a great many people lived on barely subsistence agricultural jobs. Now hardly anyone would live at those standards. Mechanization and consolidation of agriculture have helped replace those undesirable jobs. The jobs that are left we often look to hire illegal aliens who will do anything to get by.
My grandparents did spend most of their life in the same area, and never faced the employment problems that there are today in the area.
That is revisionist history. People have been losing their jobs in recessions and depressions forever. Let's ignore the Great Depression when the whole country was totally [snip] and look at post-WW II.
That is revisionist history. People have been losing their jobs in recessions and depressions forever. Let's ignore the Great Depression when the whole country was totally [snip] and look at post-WW II.
The height of the Great Recession was 9.6%. 1982 when I entered the labor force was worse.
Just because you are ignorant of history doesn't mean it didn't happen.
The rate itself doesn't paint anywhere near a complete picture.
Rates fluctuate. I'm from an area that was dependent on manufacturing. As time went on, many of these "quality jobs" have either been offshored, outsourced to cheap vendors, automated or folded into other roles, or otherwise no longer exist. In their place we've gotten a lot of call centers, retail, and food service jobs, which are all far less likely to provide a living wage. Repeat this hundreds of times across the country with small metros that were once viable, middle class places, but are now no longer competitive.
The rate is what it is, but the job quality for the "average" person was probably better historically than it is today.
Last edited by yellowbelle; 05-02-2016 at 09:47 AM..
Reason: quoted post has been moderated
That is revisionist history. People have been losing their jobs in recessions and depressions forever. Let's ignore the Great Depression when the whole country was totally F'ed and look at post-WW II.
The height of the Great Recession was 9.6%. 1982 when I entered the labor force was worse.
Just because you are ignorant of history doesn't mean it didn't happen.
After Vietnam, I moved to Cleveland so my wife could finish up her last year of college. Unemployment rates at that time were over 20%. Businesses would not even take applications. Finally my college degree paid off. I got a job making $3/hr in a hospital. I had to pay the first months salary to a placement agency. Personally I find all of the whining and moaning about jobs just short of disgusting. No millennials had to give up 2 years of their lives and spend one of those years in a combat zone with serious mortality rates. Afterwards the unemployment rates were way, way higher and stayed that way for a long time. Now we hear about the expenses of college and the ongoing loans. Some of that is due to the need to have fancy dorms and often attend the high priced private colleges. I do agree college costs are a problem. On the other after college my wife and I worked lots of jobs and got by cheap in order to get the downpayment for a house. The loan was at an APR of over 10%. We had another 5-10 years of struggling to get by with no extras and no vacations. By comparison live is easy but we hear the complaints of those who have had it easy and don't know any better. The good old days were no joy and "real" salaries were not better.
Math, as it relates to work and the overall economy of a country isn't always the chief indicator of that country's level of prosperity. And, in the US this is more so the case when comparing America to other advanced industrial nations. For all of the hand wringing over our supposed lacking of a properly educated workforce we still remain one of the most prosperous nations ever. However, the spread of that prosperity deserves to be considered in any valid discussion of economics.
The level of American prosperity that I can observe locally, coupled with my observations wile travelling has me thinking that the real problem in America when considering levels of prosperity lies in the fact of our startling lack of a well spread out economic well being. Luxury abounds here. A recent trip to Palm Springs comes to mind when thinking about that spread. Exotic cars, palatial homes, beautiful clean streets lined with majestic Palms. Block after block of high middle class eateries, art galleries, and fashion boutiques, and, the exclusive clubs and golf courses for those with money to burn.
But not too far into the surrounding desert the shabby face of poverty began to show as the widespread norm. Reading about the local economics suggests the overall wage scale in southeastern California is not sufficient when considering the cost of housing, food, utilities, and other basic necessities. Palm Springs may not be the best example of a lopsided distribution of well being but, I think those islands of prosperity in a sea of struggling workers are more common that we might think.
The min wage raise proposal only addresses those who earn at that level, the majority of workers are earning much more, so that discussion relates entirely to those on the lowest rungs of the compensation scale, much of the dire poverty is also found at that level of pay. So, wages do play an important part in the overall scheme of things, and education can only address a small part of that scenario.
A low wage middle aged worker isn't always doing menial brainless work, and the high paid guy working at facebook certainly isn't contributing at a level consistent with NASA standards so I'm not altogether convinced that we have a well balanced sense of what constitutes a just compensation standard anymore. And that has added to the middle class angst, the insecurity that goes along with living in a shaky economy can't be ignored as a factor in consumer confidence.
After reading about the claims of America as a place that doesn't value math enough I find that some vehemently disagree with such claims, instead making a case for the possibility that we are operating on an outdated paradigm in higher education where math serves as a kind of filter, for everyone, regardless of it supposed utility. Rote learning was, and in most cases still is, the American educational norm. Learning to think is considered a new thing in some schools, and that seems to be a real obstacle for the recent grads when attempting to find employment.
This from an article regarding our current math dilemma:
.......
..... So, wages do play an important part in the overall scheme of things, and education can only address a small part of that scenario.
....
Low wages are do to limited demand for low skilled employees and a great oversupply. California has more than its share of issues and part of that is due to the huge influx of uneducated and illegal aliens. I don't think any State has more of a divide between the haves and have nots. Paying higher salaries for unskilled workers will not solve the problem. There is still a lot of hand picking required for some crops, but overall agricultural employment has dropped drastically and continues to drop.
Now and in the future there is growing demand for educated, skilled employees. Math is only one skill. Actually talking about calculus and "math" skills misses the point. The average American can barely add, subtract, multiply or divide. Most have trouble with ratios, percentages and fractions. Any time any sort of survey is conducted the ignorance of the American population is just astounding. The nature of the subject matter hardly matters: math, writing, geography, science, history, and on it goes. We have a huge percentage of the population that actually believes in zoombies, space aliens, the Loch Ness monster and all sorts of nonsense that are the subjects of popular TV shows and movies. Based on the abysmal ignorance of the population the long term future of the middle class does not look good.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
