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Old 05-28-2016, 12:01 PM
 
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those that want to succeed will find a way , the rest just find an excuse

 
Old 05-28-2016, 12:08 PM
 
Location: Starting a walkabout
2,689 posts, read 1,653,613 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoffD View Post
I know plenty of people who grew up affluent with every advantage but didn't have the work ethic or the self discipline and went nowhere. Most of them still had a better outcome than someone growing up poverty level.
I know plenty of middle class / upper middle class or even well off Asian families with two children. Both are given equal opportunities. One makes good use of the free education supplied by the parents and becomes a professional or a financial person who has a good head start in life. They start out with no debt and their work ethic nets then $3-5M on retirement.

The other kid never has the study ethic or financial ethic. He parties in college and graduates near the bottom of the class. He depends on his parents for their pet projects that have no good underlying financial plan. They fail in business after business and finally become a wastrel relying on parental handouts. The other sibling has grown apart from him / her. When the parents leave this world this person suddenly has no one to care for him.

And they become bitter and complain how the rich have treated them unfairly and they have failed the rat race and so on. Excuses are easy to make but hard work is difficult.
 
Old 05-28-2016, 12:29 PM
 
Location: Oregon, formerly Texas
10,022 posts, read 7,168,058 times
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There's an an element of hard work in anyone's success story. Unless you were just really lucky... if you don't work hard or at least work smart you won't succeed.

Most successful people looking back will cite what THEY did without looking at their various subtle advantages and just plain luck. Or just as important - the luck of nothing going horribly WRONG, ie: you get a cancer diagnosis, get into a bad accident or something. My dad was a wealthy man before he got cancer, and then it all drained away. You can't work hard when you've got cancer. Just can't. You'll pass out.

I can look back on my life and see the points where I flipped the right side of a coin so to speak. I did work to put myself in position to call the right side, but there were other factors at work too. Since I've been on the hiring side, it's amazing to me how lucky anyone is to get a job - it's really luck of the draw based on the size & composition of your competitor pool. Sometimes a person stands out head & shoulders among the rest, sometimes a person is the only good candidate among a handful. Other times that same person is drowned out in a sea of excellence.
 
Old 05-28-2016, 01:28 PM
 
Location: Starting a walkabout
2,689 posts, read 1,653,613 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redguard57 View Post

Most successful people looking back will cite what THEY did without looking at their various subtle advantages and just plain luck.

I can look back on my life and see the points where I flipped the right side of a coin so to speak. I did work to put myself in position to call the right side, but there were other factors at work too. Since I've been on the hiring side, it's amazing to me how lucky anyone is to get a job - it's really luck of the draw based on the size & composition of your competitor pool. Sometimes a person stands out head & shoulders among the rest, sometimes a person is the only good candidate among a handful. Other times that same person is drowned out in a sea of excellence.
I believe luck is 99 % hard work, preparedness and perseverance. Only 1 % is just pure chance. And if you are not prepared, you cannot even recognize luck even if it hits you on the face like a wet fish.

I applied for a middle level position when I was in England. I was well prepared, had a good resume and had the qualifications. Unfortunately I was pipped at the post every time by someone who had stronger recommendation letter or phone call.

Rather than try the same tactic over and over, after I finished my current job I took a temp job ( locums) that was available for 2 months that had a interview for regular position at the end of that time. I worked my butt off those two months and my bosses never had to worry about how the job was run.

A week before the interview ( 2 positions had opened up by then and 65 candidates applied for those 2) I asked my boss my chances of getting it. Her reply - Kamban I don't know about the 2nd person to be chosen, but I have already decided on who I want. As the head of the interviewing committee I don't think anyone will oppose my choice on who will be my assistant.

So I created my own luck rather than cry about lack of opportunities.
 
Old 05-28-2016, 02:06 PM
 
24,526 posts, read 18,064,550 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vladlensky View Post
Agree, but I think we need to look at what 'relatively inexpensive' means today when it comes to state schools. I think it is not unfair to say that most students paying sticker prices (as we have to face the fact that there are not enough scholarships to go around) even with resident tuition rates are looking at close to six figures in debt to obtain a bachelor's degree at most state schools once you factor in tuition, interest capitalization over the life of the loan.
Most places, the first two years at a community college while living at home is certainly "relatively inexpensive". Where I live, tuition and fees are about $4K. The local state university is $12,500. Figure $50K for four years all-in counting books and bus passes doing it that way. You can get to both with public transportation so you don't need a car. If you wanted to do all four years at the local university, the all-in living at home would be maybe $70K. That's not even considering means testing on the tuition and fees and scholarships. Lots of local college students can and do work their way through college and graduate with zero debt.

Unless you're going to major in something that will really boost your earnings, it's insane to borrow money to go to college. I have Electrical Engineering and Computer Science degrees. For something like that? Sure. My school loans were lost in the noise. Sociology to get paid $22K as an entry level social worker? You have zero shot at earning enough to dig out from student debt. I used to roll my eyes at the Occupy Wall Streeters complaining that they had 6 figure student debt and a Sociology degree. Or even worse, flunked out after two years with $50K in debt. There are millions of those people walking around.
 
Old 05-28-2016, 02:12 PM
 
Location: Oregon, formerly Texas
10,022 posts, read 7,168,058 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kamban View Post
I believe luck is 99 % hard work, preparedness and perseverance. Only 1 % is just pure chance. And if you are not prepared, you cannot even recognize luck even if it hits you on the face like a wet fish.

I applied for a middle level position when I was in England. I was well prepared, had a good resume and had the qualifications. Unfortunately I was pipped at the post every time by someone who had stronger recommendation letter or phone call.

Rather than try the same tactic over and over, after I finished my current job I took a temp job ( locums) that was available for 2 months that had a interview for regular position at the end of that time. I worked my butt off those two months and my bosses never had to worry about how the job was run.

A week before the interview ( 2 positions had opened up by then and 65 candidates applied for those 2) I asked my boss my chances of getting it. Her reply - Kamban I don't know about the 2nd person to be chosen, but I have already decided on who I want. As the head of the interviewing committee I don't think anyone will oppose my choice on who will be my assistant.

So I created my own luck rather than cry about lack of opportunities.
It was luck that temp position allowed you to get your foot in the door and ingratiate yourself with the decision-maker. Most places I've worked, temps are rarely hired full-time. Often they are looked down upon.

I'm sad to say it but I know I've seen situations where there are equivalent candidates and the better-looking, more charismatic one gets the nod. These are public-facing jobs so I suppose charisma does matter, but there's an unfairness to it; some people are just not as good looking. Unfortunately I myself was a beneficiary of that. Or I guess fortunate. I suppose it was work.... I worked on my fitness, chose good clothes, had even taken acting & improv classes because I knew presentation skill & ability to hold a room's attention was something I needed. Like I said, I worked to put myself into position but there was a significant luck factor beyond my control.
 
Old 05-28-2016, 02:15 PM
 
33,016 posts, read 27,350,624 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainCommander View Post
Yes. Good point. There is a related way of doing thing: spend money only on things that will make you money or otherwise bear fruit--things that produce. Its interesting how many people see houses or cars as ends in and of themselves when a house or a car are still 'crucibles of facilitation'. The producing is mainly with hands and brains. A house is a place to stay and be clean and rest and refresh. A car is to get you from here to there. Sadly a lot of people really don't have a clue about life. Its not about the stuff its about life and the living and living it.

A house you own is, at a minimum, a cost stabilizer and a HEDGE against rent inflation, which I consider crucial to low earners if they are to build wealth. Housing you rent makes landlords wealthy and keeps low earners poor forever.
 
Old 05-28-2016, 02:19 PM
 
33,016 posts, read 27,350,624 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SportyandMisty View Post
What if you have a lifetime of bad choices that leads you to permanent economic failure? Should other people feel sorry for you?

What bad choices have I made in the past 20 years?
 
Old 05-28-2016, 02:22 PM
 
14,347 posts, read 14,161,665 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artillery77 View Post
Millionaires chalk success up to hard work and family values

by Jackie Wattles @jackiewattles May 24, 2016: 6:10 PM ET



How to be a millionaire.
Most high net worth Americans say they worked their way up from a lower class.

That's according to a report released by U.S. Trust on Monday, based on a survey that asked 684 adults in the U.S. with $3 million or more of "investible assets" hundreds of questions.

About 77% of those surveyed said they grew up in the middle class or lower, including 19% who say they were poor. And they credit their success to three somewhat surprising factors: Hard work, ambition and family upbringing. Respondents even went so far as to say that these influences were much more important than "connections" or "innate talent."
"The points seem to be so traditional in nature," said Chris Heilmann, the chief fiduciary executive at U.S. Trust, Bank of America's private wealth management firm. "It's [about] deeply held family values rather than an inheritance or existing wealth,"


The survey was also a shout-out to strict parents. About 80% of respondents said their parents were firm disciplinarians. They also named "academic achievement," "financial discipline" and "work participation" as the family values that were most emphasized in their homes.
"It indicates the American Dream seems to be alive and well," Heilmann said.
Considering that some people might doubt that, Heilmann said that the results were "refreshing, encouraging and a bit surprising."
CNNMoney (New York) First published May 23, 2016: 7:42 PM ET

I haven't analyzed this at length. I am sure there is truth to many of these comments.

The thought that crosses my mind though is this: How many people would ever say in a survey that something other than their own hard work and family values was responsible for their own financial success?

I mean I can't see someone saying "I'm successful because of the money I inherited from dad and a lot of good luck". Yet, there are plenty of people who are wealthy for exactly those reasons. (Donald Trump among them)

If you ask a question certain ways, you are likely to get certain answers. I question the objectivity of this result.

I also suspect that this is the sort of article that the readers of this magazine want to see. So, the publisher is likely to give them what they want.

Nothing I say though doesn't mean that there aren't a good number of people who became wealthy this way.

The problem we really have in America is not that people don't have a way to become wealthy. The problem we have is that too few these days seem to have a way to enter the middle class.
 
Old 05-28-2016, 02:22 PM
 
24,526 posts, read 18,064,550 times
Reputation: 40210
Quote:
Originally Posted by redguard57 View Post
It was luck that temp position allowed you to get your foot in the door and ingratiate yourself with the decision-maker. Most places I've worked, temps are rarely hired full-time. Often they are looked down upon.
If you substitute "intern" or "co-op" for "temp", it happens all the time in my universe. The competent, self-directing, motivated intern pretty much always gets a job offer when they graduate unless the company is belt tightening. They're dirt cheap new grads and they're already mostly trained. If the temp is doing mundane repetitive task work, then yeah.

I tell pretty much everybody that they want to go to college at a school with a good co-op program. As long as you're a strong enough student to get placed in a decent corporation, it's pretty much automatic that you'll do fine once you graduate.
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