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Old 08-07-2017, 12:24 PM
 
28,115 posts, read 63,659,938 times
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Do you really think it is new?

There was a time when all belonged to the King or Church... California belonged to the Catholic Church and King of Spain.

I believe much of the 20th Century to be the anomaly...

Look at Rockefeller... he could buy Gates and Buffet several times over... or Vanderbilt or Carnegie...

This is the period in American History when wealth was truly concentrated...
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Old 08-07-2017, 01:57 PM
 
Location: Ruidoso, NM
5,667 posts, read 6,593,451 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultrarunner View Post
I believe much of the 20th Century to be the anomaly...
The Industrial Revolution was the anomaly. It changed everything starting around the beginning of the 19th century.

The curve through the graph below is a 1.9% increase per year. Amazingly consistent long-term.

Consumer-capitalism requires that consumer buying power rises with economic growth. Prior to 1929 there was a slight imbalance with wage growth on average increasing at a 1.6%/yr rate. By 1929 this was enough to cause an economic collapse. The situation was rectified though, with strong median wage growth from the early 30s to the late 70s, exceeding GDP/capita. Since then wage growth has been nil, but the hole has been filled with debt, via the magic of fiat money, finance, and international trade.





Compare to median wages here:



And the top .01% income share:

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Old 08-07-2017, 07:31 PM
 
28,115 posts, read 63,659,938 times
Reputation: 23268
Just by happenstance read a story in the Sunday paper about real wealth and control...

336 Billion Rockefeller 1839-1937 Controlled 90% of the oil production in the US

309 Billion Carnegie 1835-1919 Steel and Railroad

165 Billion Vanderbilt 1794-1877 Shipping and Railroad

compared to Gates and Bezos both under 90 Billion and Buffet around 75 Billion.

Seems far fewer controlled much more in former times.
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Old 08-07-2017, 07:59 PM
 
4,369 posts, read 3,722,549 times
Reputation: 2479
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultrarunner View Post
Just by happenstance read a story in the Sunday paper about real wealth and control...

336 Billion Rockefeller 1839-1937 Controlled 90% of the oil production in the US

309 Billion Carnegie 1835-1919 Steel and Railroad

165 Billion Vanderbilt 1794-1877 Shipping and Railroad

compared to Gates and Bezos both under 90 Billion and Buffet around 75 Billion.

Seems far fewer controlled much more in former times.
So one Bay Area house?
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Old 08-07-2017, 11:36 PM
 
Location: Myrtle Creek, Oregon
15,293 posts, read 17,678,616 times
Reputation: 25236
Quote:
Originally Posted by rruff View Post
This is nothing new. The large and growing disparity between the incomes of the rich and poor IS new.

The support for lower skilled jobs (mostly provided by the presence of unions) has basically disappeared. This has affected wages all through the income scale. Even the most highly educated have only maintained similar incomes to 40 years ago, they've not gained ground.

Rather our economic gains have gone to investors, not workers. The "gap" has been filled with escalating debt (both fiscal and private).
Median income is pretty much where it always has been. The big difference is people's expectations. They want to move to cities where services are automatic, but don't anticipate that their lifestyle will take a big hit if they do that. Nobody forces anyone to go into debt. If you can't afford it, don't buy it.
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Old 08-08-2017, 07:41 AM
 
11,411 posts, read 7,803,058 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freemkt View Post
First movers shouldn't have to move again.

But didn't you move it Portland from elsewhere? If so, then you need you need to leave in order to make it easier for those born there or who move there before you to afford rent. Yes, that's ridiculous and so is your view that you are somehow owed cheap rent because you moved there before others who can afford more.

You don't have and never have had a rent and/or zoning problem. You have and always will have an income and attitude problem. 4 decades ago you had a college degree which put you ahead of most of other people. But, you couldn't afford to go to law school like you wanted. Instead of figuring out how to get past that tiny pebble in the road and do something gainful with the degree you did have, you sat down, complained loudly and did nothing. And there you still sit stymied and moaning by what now is a huge pile of rocks built with your bad decisions and inertia instead of doing SOMETHING to improve your life.

Many, many people wanted to go on for further education after college and couldn't for one reason or another and yet most figured out a way to parley the degree they did have into a decent income. You didn't and now you want to blame the world for it instead of putting the blame where it belongs: On yourself.

Last edited by UNC4Me; 08-08-2017 at 07:50 AM..
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Old 08-08-2017, 08:09 AM
 
33,016 posts, read 27,451,622 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UNC4Me View Post
But didn't you move it Portland from elsewhere? If so, then you need you need to leave in order to make it easier for those born there or who move there before you to afford rent. Yes, that's ridiculous and so is your view that you are somehow owed cheap rent because you moved there before others who can afford more.

You don't have and never have had a rent and/or zoning problem. You have and always will have an income and attitude problem. 4 decades ago you had a college degree which put you ahead of most of other people. But, you couldn't afford to go to law school like you wanted. Instead of figuring out how to get past that tiny pebble in the road and do something gainful with the degree you did have, you sat down, complained loudly and did nothing. And there you still sit stymied and moaning by what now is a huge pile of rocks built with your bad decisions and inertia instead of doing SOMETHING to improve your life.

Many, many people wanted to go on for further education after college and couldn't for one reason or another and yet most figured out a way to parley the degree they did have into a decent income. You didn't and now you want to blame the world for it instead of putting the blame where it belongs: On yourself.

That is true but I'm being priced out by MORE RECENT ARRIVALS, not by the oldtimers. So I should have priority over the newbies. Isn't that how it works for homeowners?

A free market will produce the supply necessary to meet demand, so it really is a zoning problem.
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Old 08-08-2017, 08:44 AM
 
Location: The Triad
34,088 posts, read 82,953,336 times
Reputation: 43661
Quote:
Originally Posted by freemkt View Post
That is true but I'm being priced out by MORE RECENT ARRIVALS, not by the oldtimers.
So I should have priority over the newbies. Isn't that how it works for homeowners?
So long as the critical piece of establishing some form of ownership is accomplished.

Quote:
A free market will produce the supply necessary to meet demand...
That's an economic THEORY and most of that sort of discussion just leads to circle jerks.

Quote:
...so it really is a zoning problem.
In your case? Nope.
Your's is a not packing up and moving to where that supply exists problem.
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Old 08-08-2017, 09:15 AM
 
4,224 posts, read 3,016,633 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRational View Post
That's an economic THEORY and most of that sort of discussion just leads to circle jerks.
The THEORY is based on the existence of many and diverse simplifying assumptions that do not exist or apply in the real world. All most people have ever read about "supply and demand" is a cartoon-grade effort to dumb down the material for popular consumption.
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Old 08-08-2017, 09:19 AM
 
Location: Ruidoso, NM
5,667 posts, read 6,593,451 times
Reputation: 4817
Quote:
Originally Posted by freemkt View Post
Isn't that how it works for homeowners?
It works for people who get their heads out of their butts, save some $$$, take a risk, and actually buy a home.

And then stay there long enough for it to pay off.

If you are renting, then you are flexible and you can easily move. And you are subject to whatever happens in the housing market.

Quote:
Originally Posted by freemkt View Post
A free market will produce the supply necessary to meet demand, so it really is a zoning problem.
What do you have in mind? Tiny efficiency apartments?
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