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Old 07-14-2017, 11:32 AM
 
4,229 posts, read 1,911,784 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
The socio-economic consequences are obvious: The State raises taxes, both household and disposable income decline, job losses mount, taxes are increased, both household and disposable income decline, taxes are increased....
Hmmm. The proceeds of these increased taxes of yours are not actually stuffed into a coffee can and buried in the back yard. Instead, they are all but instantly spent (and in cases of deficit spending, more than spent) back into the economy causing household and disposable income to increase, payrolls to expand, product to rise, and on and on and on. You seem to have done a disservice to that part of the picture.
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Old 07-14-2017, 11:40 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd trick op View Post
Do you consider the socialism of Clement Atlee and Harold Wilson, which was running Great Britain into the ground before the emergence of Margaret Thatcher, a "success"?
Like Reagan, Thatcher was popular for a time in some quarters. Any bit of reputation as some sort economic miracle worker would however have been entirely undeserved. The facts of economic history are that capitalism too much left to its own desires has inevitably failed. Sustained and significant well-being have come only in periods of carefully managed capitalsm -- what knee-jerkers often tend to call "socialism."
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Old 07-15-2017, 03:05 AM
 
Location: Silicon Valley
2,776 posts, read 1,223,004 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonesg View Post
And CA tax drives them out again.
Same as CT, industry flees from the fleas.
Same as NY.
Ditto NJ.

A pattern is a consistent coincidence to the blind.
You're half right....a pattern is a consistent coincidence to the blind and I agree. The pattern you're looking for is called the Product cycle... All products have a path from innovation to commodity. That's the pattern you're looking for. The good jobs are found on the innovation end. When you're the only one that can make something, you can set your price. When anyone willing to work cheaply enough can make your product, you have no value-add left other than to assemble the cheapest supply/labor chain.

So yes, New York City, because of economic cost of labor, and the economic cost of rent, and all the other inputs, can't compete with Bangladesh in making mass produced textiles like they used to when London was the incumbent, having taken that from the Low Countries in Europe...

Does an employee want a Designer's wage, despite the extra cost involved in schooling, or that of a line seamstress in the sweatshop?

Does a landowner want the economic rate of low rise textile facility, replete with its chemicals and single use buildout, or would it rather house a financial trading house, with offices easily convertible for a bank or insurance company?

Does a capitalist or a bank want to loan money to a textile company in a low cost input market or a high cost input market?

Those are the powerful invisible hand forces that moves industry from one area to another, and have since the industrial revolution. Taxes....are high because they are a byproduct of income, rising property values or labor costs. This is why lowering taxes doesn't spur investment that wasn't going to happen already anyway. It's why California doesn't care about the jobs it loses to Texas....they were going to lose them anyway, because the workers and the companies have already moved on to something more profitable.

Detroit was once the innovation and engineering capital of the country. A lot of really smart people tried to find some balance of how to keep low skill jobs with high skill jobs and profitable companies. Chrysler and GM needed the government to keep them going. Ford's debt levels are amazing. That protection, entrapped being is what keeps the rust belt's persistent patter equating to...rust and decay. That protected wage making no company willing to pickup some of the greatest industrial works ever built at any price.

California screws up something, likely significant, every day. The cockiness comes from knowing that hits that would cripple another area will slide off here. California won't fall because...nobody else will even believe in an innovation economy as much as the people here. Those that do...end up coming, imperfections and all. One day a rival will appear and we may actually have to work hard or something...and then those rivals will get to deal with all the unique issues here....just without the weather. Wonder whose consultants they'll hire...

Back to my bubble.
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Old 07-15-2017, 06:37 AM
 
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In reality, there are significant tech hubs located all over the world and all over the nation. The tendency of some West Coast techie-wannabes to view themselves as god-like Olympians in the field is often just an off-the-rails bit of self-absorbed puffery. It's like some people were dipped at some point in Beach Boys mythology and it never wore off.
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Old 07-15-2017, 11:52 AM
 
Location: Silicon Valley
2,776 posts, read 1,223,004 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pub-911 View Post
In reality, there are significant tech hubs located all over the world and all over the nation. The tendency of some West Coast techie-wannabes to view themselves as god-like Olympians in the field is often just an off-the-rails bit of self-absorbed puffery. It's like some people were dipped at some point in Beach Boys mythology and it never wore off.
I didn't start the topic. The topic is about a Californian collapse, that people tend to bring up again and again. Apparently nobody wants to talk about an Ohio collapse or a Detroit collapse. People look at this the wrong way. Why did the rust belt decline, yet Chicago and the Twin Cities managed to grow. How did NYC arrest its decline in the 80's and completely turn around areas like Times Square. How did Boston migrate from declining industry to tech hub. How did Austin attract tech? The places that are tech hubs (NYC, Boston, Austin, Atlanta, TC, Chicago to a lesser degree) and head and shoulders pulling away from areas devoid of tech.

But no, the people want to talk about California. Everything we've learned says it shouldn't work. The people don't work as hard. The inputs are all expensive. There's regulation everywhere. There's taxes on everything. So why wasn't the area bankrupt decades ago? Why do people still do business in high cost London, or high cost Tokyo or high cost Hong Kong or security risk Israel? People don't get that this isn't a giant debt fueled buildup.

Nobody argues that all meaningful research happens here, but it is still the center, just like not all finance takes places in London/NYC, but one of those is the center there. As long as it's the center, that's a pretty big pillar against any type of CA collapse, and nothing appears set to take that down. With the rains returning, the ag pillar is another solid foundation point in place looking to grow back, and until Bollywood overtakes Hollywood, that's likely also a pretty big support for the SoCal region.

Don't be a hater Pubs. Just love the Sharks and Dubs...
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Old 07-15-2017, 12:19 PM
 
8,021 posts, read 6,235,593 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artillery77 View Post
I didn't start the topic. The topic is about a Californian collapse, that people tend to bring up again and again. Apparently nobody wants to talk about an Ohio collapse or a Detroit collapse. People look at this the wrong way. Why did the rust belt decline, yet Chicago and the Twin Cities managed to grow. How did NYC arrest its decline in the 80's and completely turn around areas like Times Square. How did Boston migrate from declining industry to tech hub. How did Austin attract tech? The places that are tech hubs (NYC, Boston, Austin, Atlanta, TC, Chicago to a lesser degree) and head and shoulders pulling away from areas devoid of tech.

But no, the people want to talk about California. Everything we've learned says it shouldn't work. The people don't work as hard. The inputs are all expensive. There's regulation everywhere. There's taxes on everything. So why wasn't the area bankrupt decades ago? Why do people still do business in high cost London, or high cost Tokyo or high cost Hong Kong or security risk Israel? People don't get that this isn't a giant debt fueled buildup.

Nobody argues that all meaningful research happens here, but it is still the center, just like not all finance takes places in London/NYC, but one of those is the center there. As long as it's the center, that's a pretty big pillar against any type of CA collapse, and nothing appears set to take that down. With the rains returning, the ag pillar is another solid foundation point in place looking to grow back, and until Bollywood overtakes Hollywood, that's likely also a pretty big support for the SoCal region.

Don't be a hater Pubs. Just love the Sharks and Dubs...
Isn't it obvious? For most people praying for California's demise it is purely political pettiness. California is the most liberal and one of the most diverse states in the country and they want to see it fail for that reason alone. These same people cheered when the Oroville dam spilled.

FWIW, people have been talking about California's demise for the past two decades. Essentially since Pete Wilson's tenure as governor ended.
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Old 07-17-2017, 08:57 AM
 
Location: Chicago area
8,197 posts, read 12,437,296 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ro2113 View Post
Isn't it obvious? For most people praying for California's demise it is purely political pettiness.

FWIW, people have been talking about California's demise for the past two decades. Essentially since Pete Wilson's tenure as governor ended.
It isn't petty. People want to see California or in my case Illinois collapse because the govts there exist primarily to serve itself and not the people and it has become a significant quality of live issue due to the suffering it inflicts on the residents who need to live there. It is like wanting to see the Gambino Crime Family collapse. Hopefully, it will allow the govt to be demolished and rebuilt and bring attention to the issue so it is not allowed to happen again in the USA.

Governments that do not serve the people should not be allowed to exist. We should never be in a situation where people flee their homes due to bad govt in the USA.
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Old 07-17-2017, 09:17 AM
 
4,229 posts, read 1,911,784 times
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We should never allow ourselves to be driven by people who cannot keep their wild imaginations under control.
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Old 07-17-2017, 10:53 AM
 
3,812 posts, read 3,714,477 times
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Quote:
California is the most liberal and one of the most diverse states in the country and they want to see it fail for that reason alone.
Well, they are going to have to wait because California was #2 behind TX in population gains (190k to 210k) in the last year, and has one of the US' fastest growing cities (Irvine, at +10k people).
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Old 07-17-2017, 11:39 AM
 
8,021 posts, read 6,235,593 times
Reputation: 12004
Quote:
Originally Posted by MSchemist80 View Post
It isn't petty. People want to see California or in my case Illinois collapse because the govts there exist primarily to serve itself and not the people and it has become a significant quality of live issue due to the suffering it inflicts on the residents who need to live there. It is like wanting to see the Gambino Crime Family collapse. Hopefully, it will allow the govt to be demolished and rebuilt and bring attention to the issue so it is not allowed to happen again in the USA.

Governments that do not serve the people should not be allowed to exist. We should never be in a situation where people flee their homes due to bad govt in the USA.
A government that collapses will indeed cause people to flee their homes so rooting for that is self-deafeating. Why not utilize your voting power?
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