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Old 08-08-2017, 08:32 AM
 
33,046 posts, read 20,708,082 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRational View Post
More to the point... they would proactively build (aka develop) mill houses and such to be within a reasonable
walking distance of the no/low skill jobs the people there had ...and these employers needed done.

The difference TODAY in most cities is that much of, too much of, the existing housing in reasonable
proximity to most jobs are inhabited by the same sort of no/low skill people as in Smith's day...
but TODAY the jobs in reasonable proximity are of the high and specialized skill sort.

It creates a highly inefficient allocation of assets.
Smith would see that in a heartbeat and be first in line with the practical remedy needed.

Low-wage workers are housing "takers", not housing "choosers" - they do not "choose" to live in neighborhoods by choice as much as they are left with the housing and neighborhoods unwanted by others.

i.e. gentrification is the re-CHOOSING of those with higher incomes to live in urban neighborhoods, thereby displacing the poor who moved into those neighborhoods decades earlier when previously more affluent people abandoned them.

Price rationing necessarily means that low-wage workers get the housing left by others, as opposed to housing of their choosing, whether that housing is located near to or far from their workplaces.
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Old 08-08-2017, 08:37 AM
 
Location: The Triad (NC)
26,837 posts, read 57,830,396 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pub-911 View Post
Then "natural" shouldn't be held up as it was as some sort of sacred, virginal, untainted quality...
That's a valid critique... but making that sort of distinction (and similar could be said of most terms
used in nearly every post) would add preambles of explanation longer than most of the posts.

Such as.. the one who introduced the term is also the one who didn't understand the difference
between immoral and amoral... but such is the nature of the animal in these venues.

Quote:
It should recognized that societies and economies are human constructs that have capacities
for going off the rails in manners so serious as to require direct human intervention.
Again... this the theory and the intention behind those 3rd party intervention efforts is usually noble.

That doesn't equate with actually being "good" or even effective though. Does it?
If anything most intervention seems to just create other problems... like squeezing a balloon.
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Old 08-08-2017, 08:48 AM
 
Location: The Triad (NC)
26,837 posts, read 57,830,396 times
Reputation: 29220
Quote:
Originally Posted by freemkt View Post
i.e. gentrification is the re-CHOOSING by those with higher incomes to live in urban neighborhoods,
thereby displacing the poor who moved into those neighborhoods decades earlier
when previously more affluent people abandoned them.
Correct. And it's a wonderful thing when done well.

But even when done poorly...
that sort of reallocation of the land & housing assets now and again is what allows cities to maintain.

You should **embrace** the opportunity available to you.
Start packing. Go. This week.
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Old 08-08-2017, 09:01 AM
 
4,229 posts, read 1,904,197 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRational View Post
That's a valid critique... but making that sort of distinction (and similar could be said of most terms used in nearly every post) would add preambles of explanation longer than most of the posts.
One tries in any case to speak and write with some sense of precision, particularly in a medium so easily misunderstood as the internet. An avoidance of "weasel words" is an important part in that. Baggage has been attached to the word "natural." Best to use it only rarely, and perhaps not at all in the process of pleading for "needed" change.
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Old 08-08-2017, 11:04 AM
 
12,404 posts, read 9,195,957 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by verybadgnome View Post
The title is part of a quote from a local city council member fretting about the shortage of naturally affordable and subsidized housing units within the city of Austin:

I believe that part of our role as a community and as a government is to provide protections against immoral market forces, said Council Member Greg Casar

https://www.austinmonitor.com/storie...t-segregation/

I find it interesting that he uses the term "immoral" and think it is very misleading mistaking the effect for the cause and then assigning some type of intention to parties involved in the housing market. I guess this kind of remark works with naive populists that are part of is his base, sort of a mirror image of what is happening on the other end of the political spectrum. I don't think it will work long term, but then again there is another council member, Ora Houston, here who referred to "supply and demand" as an adage. We will see if they get re-elected. Thoughts?
I think the proper term is "amoral", not "immoral". Modern and postmodern neo-capitalism is intrinsically non-moral - the theory assumes everyone acts only in self-interest. They are neither evil nor good, neither altruistic nor sadistic, neither lovers nor haters.
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Old 08-08-2017, 11:35 AM
 
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Some might argue that "postmodern neo-capitalism" is an evil in and of itself.
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Old 08-08-2017, 11:51 AM
 
12,404 posts, read 9,195,957 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pub-911 View Post
Some might argue that "postmodern neo-capitalism" is an evil in and of itself.
It is only evil if taken to be the ultimate guide on how to live one's life or how policy decisions should work. It is fine if it is kept where it belongs - in academic textbooks as just one among many imperfect, but sometimes useful, models (i.e. convenient fictions) of the economy. It is a simplified model of human agents that doesn't capture the full range of behaviors of real people in the real world.
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Old 08-08-2017, 02:45 PM
 
11 posts, read 4,662 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freemkt View Post
It is often the anti-market forces of zoning which are immoral. Shortages of naturally affordable housing units are often created by government.

Market forces are amoral, which is not the same as immoral.
That's a really good point though!
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Old 08-08-2017, 04:39 PM
 
2,700 posts, read 3,746,884 times
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Yawn. Yet another problem unique to Hipstervilles. You probably won't find a shortage of cheap housing in inner-city Detroit or Ottumwa.
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Old 08-08-2017, 08:39 PM
 
Location: Holly Neighborhood, AUSTINtx
3,455 posts, read 5,090,042 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ncole1 View Post
I think the proper term is "amoral", not "immoral". Modern and postmodern neo-capitalism is intrinsically non-moral - the theory assumes everyone acts only in self-interest. They are neither evil nor good, neither altruistic nor sadistic, neither lovers nor haters.
Okay but was the capitalism of antiquity moral in practice or is this something we like to pretend existed? ......Going even further the pre-modern capitalism must have included the slave trade so how are we somehow worse than before? I think the posit of a moral capitalism is one of a never existing ideal from another era.

Last edited by verybadgnome; 08-08-2017 at 10:07 PM..
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