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Old 09-05-2017, 06:13 PM
 
1,025 posts, read 558,839 times
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The essence of personal and political opposition to the FMW rate.

The federal minimum wage, (FMW) rate is of net social and economic benefit to our nation. It has never been among the major causes of the U.S. Dollar’s inflation; on the contrary it’s certainly among inflations’ victims.
No individuals are poorer and no enterprises suffers any competitive disadvantage to any USA enterprises due to the FMW rate.

[there’s no doubt that USA’s higher wage rates are a cause of our products’ price disadvantages in comparison to products from lower wage nations; but although the elimination of our FMW rate laws would be greatly detrimental to our nation’s net social and economic wellbeing, eliminating it would accomplish extremely little to remedy our products’ global price disadvantages].

I suppose a majority of USA’s population, (significantly more than a 10% plurality) to some extent approve of federal minimum rate’s existence. There are few among wealthy or competent people that are opposed to the federal minimum rate.

An overwhelming proportions of minimum rate opponents lack self-esteem. They need whatever affirmation of their own worth that they can derive by being able to look down upon people experiencing lesser financial conditions. They cannot acknowledge or admit to themselves their fears of improving the financial conditions of others would consequentially reduce their own social status.

That’s the essence of personal and political opposition to the FMW rate.
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Old 09-05-2017, 06:29 PM
 
Location: Texas
6,412 posts, read 2,334,503 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Supposn View Post
An overwhelming proportions of minimum rate opponents lack self-esteem. They need whatever affirmation of their own worth that they can derive by being able to look down upon people experiencing lesser financial conditions. They cannot acknowledge or admit to themselves their fears of improving the financial conditions of others would consequentially reduce their own social status.

That’s the essence of personal and political opposition to the FMW rate.
I think you're right. Lots of people would feel threatened by lower paid people "getting ahead".


Also, a capitalist society needs a working, under paid class of citizens who have to claw to get ahead. That's pretty much the foundation of capitalism.
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Old 09-05-2017, 09:22 PM
 
311 posts, read 534,987 times
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*Federal* minimum wage laws is a non issue polarized by political parties (mostly Democrats). Every major city pays more than $7.25 to retain workers and half of the states have higher than fed minimum wage. Only local and state governments can accurately set wages. $15 is acceptable for SF but not in Jackson MS.
Wages go up COL go up, the eternal cycle.
The only economic problem America have is crony capitalism + government supported corporations.
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Old 09-06-2017, 09:58 AM
 
Location: Paranoid State
12,662 posts, read 9,420,097 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Supposn View Post
... It has never been among the major causes of the U.S. Dollar’s inflation...
That's like saying the FMW has never been a cause of mercury poisoning in the ocean. No credible economist has ever asserted that the FMW has been a cause of inflation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supposn View Post
...No individuals are poorer ... due to the FMW rate.
That is factually inaccurate. You ignore the individuals who are not hired because a job doesn't exist due to the FMW. When a job's value to society is below the FMW, it is never created in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supposn View Post
... although the elimination of our FMW rate laws would be greatly detrimental to our nation’s net social and economic wellbeing...
Assumes facts not in evidence. Actually, it assumes facts that can never be in evidence for the same reason physicists can never disprove E=MC^2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supposn View Post
... There are few among wealthy or competent people that are opposed to the federal minimum rate.
Factually untrue. Every credible economist agrees that any regulatory minimum wage that is above the market clearing wage for that position has a negative effect for those who were never hired because their job was never created.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Supposn View Post
... An overwhelming proportions of minimum rate opponents lack self-esteem.
Factually untrue. Opponents are people who understand both economics and the accretion of human capital via generalized OJT that comes with a low-wage job.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supposn View Post
... They need whatever affirmation of their own worth that they can derive by being able to look down upon people experiencing lesser financial conditions. They cannot acknowledge or admit to themselves their fears of improving the financial conditions of others would consequentially reduce their own social status.
LOL! That's a good one!
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Old 09-06-2017, 11:07 AM
 
24,692 posts, read 26,777,106 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merkin View Post
*Federal* minimum wage laws is a non issue polarized by political parties (mostly Democrats). Every major city pays more than $7.25 to retain workers and half of the states have higher than fed minimum wage. Only local and state governments can accurately set wages. $15 is acceptable for SF but not in Jackson MS.
Wages go up COL go up, the eternal cycle.
The only economic problem America have is crony capitalism + government supported corporations.
I agree with all of this.

Most minimum wage businesses are low profit margin businesses. So if you raise the minimum wage, prices go up. I have seen it where I live in CA. People will always say "prices would have gone up anyway". There's a grain of truth to that, but I think it's fair to say they wouldn't have gone up has much as they have. The core problem in expensive cities is lack of housing supply. That's something raising the minimum wage can't fix. Rich liberal city dwellers can feel smug/superior by voting to raise the minimum wage while at the same time blocking any and every effort to build more housing. Sure, they say they want more housing....just not in their neighborhood.
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Old 09-06-2017, 02:34 PM
 
Location: WA
5,292 posts, read 20,697,476 times
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I live in an area where the minimum wage is higher the the federal minimum. I deal with business owners all the time that tell me the result is an end to jobs that train new workers, including what was work for high school students. Overall the attitude is that it reduces entry level openings and is a bad thing in many ways.
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Old 09-06-2017, 02:57 PM
 
Location: Vallejo
13,437 posts, read 15,036,253 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SportyandMisty View Post
Assumes facts not in evidence. Actually, it assumes facts that can never be in evidence for the same reason physicists can never disprove E=MC^2.
While you can't disprove it entirely, the fact that something around 2% or less of the workforce makes at or below the federal minimum wage is basically is a de facto proof in and of itself. There would be very small number of people who would be hurt by the elimination of the federal minimum wage.

It's really on the other side that the question is more legitimate, which is how much damage does the federal minimum wage do. That's harder to say. There's no strong evidence. Certainly there's a lot of potential jobs that are not worth minimum wage but the bigger question is how many people that can't find jobs at minimum wage would be willing to work those jobs. Probably not many but varies drastically by region. San Francisco, for example, has a $14 minimum wage and around 3% unemployment. Basically anyone who wants a job can get one at $14/hour. There might be some number of people hiding in basements depressed by not being able to get jobs who would emerge with the creation of a number of jobs that paid less than $14/hr that previously weren't available, but I doubt its a large number.
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Old 09-06-2017, 05:21 PM
 
311 posts, read 534,987 times
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Quote:
So how do the conservatives feel that block any and every effort to build more housing?
Blame it on conservatives when vast majority of cities are run by Democrats.....
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Old 09-06-2017, 05:34 PM
 
24,692 posts, read 26,777,106 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doomFIST View Post
So how do the conservatives feel that block any and every effort to build more housing?
I don't know. As a conservative leaning person, I know I'm outnumbered where I live. This phenomenon is much more common in liberal areas. Even liberal media outlets are admitting that much:

Blue America has a problem: Even after adjusting for income, left-leaning metros tend to have worse income inequality and less affordable housing.


https://www.theatlantic.com/business...rdable/382045/
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Old 09-06-2017, 06:50 PM
 
Location: Silicon Valley
2,744 posts, read 1,207,954 times
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I worked for minimum wage when I started out. The initial jobs I had didn't have a "future" if I would have stayed in them, but I had spare hours and wanted to earn some money for dates, movies and a crappy car.

One guy put together a tennis instruction "school" for the town. It was low cost and a lot of kids spent their mornings in the summer learning to play tennis in large group functions. It was lead by a teacher. I don't think he lost money, but it certainly wasn't his main occupation. He'd hire some of us older kids and we'd stay busy. It was like $20 for the summer for a kid and every day you could come out and play. At the end of the season he'd put together a tournament. A couple local stores donated some small prizes. We all got minimum wage our first season, and he might raise it a little bit for those that did consecutive summers. If you were a tennis team member, it was a nice gig as you got a lot of additional court time.

He doesn't do it anymore. He's probably too old now, but before that it stopped being fun. He became concerned that he didn't have insurance. He didn't have staff trained in CPR. He didn't have a safety program or adequate medical supplies on hand.

Opposition from a high living wage boils down to this....why should he be forced to pay a living wage? All of us could have made more if we wanted at another place. Certainly nobody was foolish enough to think there was a living to be made here. We all knew what the story was and decided, that's good enough for me. I'll take it. A few actually would work tennis in the morning and then go to a different summer job.

Nobody is making the argument that, I expected to make $30 an hour and am only being paid $7...that everyone would agree is wrong. The perception is you have a group of people that agreed to be paid $7 an hour and now they want more. The employer doesn't see the value or can't afford it so rather than switch jobs, they're looking for the government to step in and raise the wage.

I think many would be fine indexing the minimum wage to inflation, but it needs to stay a minimum wage, not a living wage. I think many would be fine helping workers benchmark what their labor is worth and to help them move from someone paying to little to someone that is, individually deciding, to pay more.

The problem is that nobody wants the government coming in to set that wage. People work for a lot of reasons. Let them.
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