For or against cashless society without banknotes? (amex, company, tax)

[PacoMartin]

Originally Posted by ncole1

Against a cashless society because it prevents transactions in emergency situations without electricity, because it reduces privacy from snooping government eyes, and because it leads to discrimination against people who cannot identify themselves or sign contracts (for example, illegal immigrant, under 18, impoverished, etc.)

Like I said earlier, there are hundreds of reasons to keep cash and only a few reasons to get rid of it. This poll is ridiculous because the conclusion is foregone.

Now, the amount of cash that should be circulated is another question entirely.

In the USA we circulate about 122 banknotes per capita with a huge number of $100 bills. Many c-notes are circulating overseas. In Sweden they are only circulating 20 banknotes per capita, shown with their equivalent value in Euros for each banknote. Although the Swedes have a banknote worth slightly over 100 euros it circulates in very very small quantities.

USA end of 2016
36.1 : $1 George Washington
3.5 : $2 Thomas Jefferson
8.8 : $5 Abraham Lincoln
5.9 : $10 Alexander Hamilton
27.3 : $20 Andrew Jackson
5.1 : $50 Ulysses S. Grant
35.6 : $100 Benjamin Franklin
122.3

Sweden at end of 2017: value in krona and equivalent value in euros
5.1 : 20 kr : 2.04 €
2.0 : 50 kr : 5.11 €
3.0 : 100 kr : 10.21 €
3.1 : 200 kr : 20.43 €
6.8 : 500 kr : 51.07 €
0.3 : 1,000 kr : 102.15 €
20.3 : TOTAL

So even in Sweden they recognize the fundamental citizen's right to operate in cash. However, they use very little of it, and businesses are free not to accept cash

Once again, the poll question is should we first freeze the number of Benjamins at around 36 banknotes per capita and try to hold that for five years. If you can't do that, then any discussion of cashless society is stupid.

[TamaraSavannah]

Originally Posted by Mr5150

What's a banknote?

So in a natural disaster, such as with the fires in Northern CA, it turns out you could not buy food, water or fuel with a credit card or phone due to technical issues. It was cash only. Also, do I want my every transaction to be monitored and traceable? It always feels a little weird to hand my credit card to a waiter and have him disappear into a back room with it. Just sayin'. I do cash for 99% of my eating out.

You can't hack cash.

The only reason for society to go cashless is to give the government access to every transaction one makes.

This, exactly, and these reasons for not going cashless!

[PacoMartin]

Originally Posted by ncole1

Against a cashless society because it prevents transactions in emergency situations without electricity, because it reduces privacy from snooping government eyes, and because it leads to discrimination against people who cannot identify themselves or sign contracts (for example, illegal immigrant, under 18, impoverished, etc.)

I'll try for the third time. While China may go cashless, the USA is never going to go cashless. No politician would ever propose such a transition. Paper Cash is fundamental to American's sense of freedom and individual liberty since the civil war.

You would have to be nearly brain - dead if you couldn't think of problems with a cashless society. The poll is going to be at least 6:1 against a "cashless society".

The real issue is that there is no control on how much cash is being circulated. There has been over a 400% increase in $100 banknotes in circulation over the last two decades. That's a rate far in excess of GDP growth or population growth.

The real question should be can the USA discipline itself to stop increasing the supply of cash to the point that it's value begins to be questioned around the world?

Billions of $100 banknotes in circulation
2016 11.5
2015 10.8
2014 10.1
2013 9.2
2012 8.6
2011 7.8
2010 7.0
2009 6.6
2008 6.3
2007 5.7
2006 5.6
2005 5.4
2004 5.2
2003 4.9
2002 4.6
2001 4.2
2000 3.8
1999 3.9
1998 3.2
1997 2.9
1996 2.6

If you were to look at statistics in the 1960's and 1970's you would see that when Nixon removed the USA from the gold standard, it signaled the start of an orgy of $100 banknote production.

[newtocolumbia]

So far 81% are for cashless society. Yet 1% of population hires 18% of population to protest cash society. Which means that 19% pof the population can't afford to purchase wallets.

Also, every time I gave my debil or credil card to a "payment handler", in 22% cases I got funds stolen from my account.

[PacoMartin]

Originally Posted by newtocolumbia

So far 81% are for cashless society.

So far 81% are against cashless society.

[newtocolumbia]

Originally Posted by PacoMartin

So far 81% are against cashless society.

Sorry, you're right, it is my error. 81% are for keeping cash.

[PacoMartin]

Originally Posted by newtocolumbia

Sorry, you're right, it is my error. 81% are for keeping cash.

Cash is hugely popular in the USA. I'm surprised it wasn't over 90%. Cash is a symbol of freedom and liberty and seen as the last resort against disruption of the electronic system. Even in Sweden, they worry about backup in case of solar explosions known as a coronal mass ejection or CME.

Although almost all central banks talk about cashless in academic terms, the reality is that every country except Sweden and Norway increases their cash supply every single year.

The only poll worth taking is should the US government freeze the number of $100 banknotes in circulation (i.e. simply replace worn out notes only). I think this idea has huge merit. Although the production of $100 banknotes is hugely profitable for the US government, I think that they are building up to a potentially dangerous situation. The $100 banknote is technically a "liability", although as long as they are popular the lien is never called in. If the world finds an alternative, then people are going to call in their debt.

After 16 years, the Euro has made very little headway against the dollar. But the Chinese may someday have an independent currency.

[droc31]

There are pros and cons for both cash and electronic funds transfers/debit cards. Cash is tangible, no risk of identity theft or your personal information getting in the wrong hands in a data breach. Debit cards are convenient for the sake of not having to carry large amounts of cash or having to visit a bank or ATM machine. Years ago, if you didn't get to a bank by 5pm on Friday you were out of luck until Monday morning and had to go an entire weekend broke. I think an even balance of both cash and debit/EFT is the best way to go.

[newtocolumbia]

Originally Posted by droc31

There are pros and cons for both cash and electronic funds transfers/debit cards. Cash is tangible, no risk of identity theft or your personal information getting in the wrong hands in a data breach. Debit cards are convenient for the sake of not having to carry large amounts of cash or having to visit a bank or ATM machine. Years ago, if you didn't get to a bank by 5pm on Friday you were out of luck until Monday morning and had to go an entire weekend broke. I think an even balance of both cash and debit/EFT is the best way to go.

I agree on a healthy balance per individual needs; or an alternative (as a third option, only an option!), although I am against any privacy breach or tracking devices, they could manufacture banknotes with traceable or even trackable chips in them each with its own serial number. In such a case a widespread revolt may be a possibility, if they don't provide alternatives for individual choices.

Something like that is being pushed in some countries where in a supermarket they are shoving their "Savings Card" through your mouth by cashiers asking "Do you have a savings card? Here's a form, sign up for it" also "What is your tax number?" and every time I say "No" or "No thanks" or "Don't offer it / ask me it anymore" and every time the cashier asks me again I grow more frustrated and even less willing and even more rebellious to any annoying attempts to track and spy on me.

The government wants you to provide your tax card now on even smallest expenses, but not everyone knows that only after an amount of 1000 one has to provide their tax number. Otherwise just tell them "Final Consumer".

Now the tax and customs authority asks once a year to mark "What is this for" on their always increasingly more confusing and inoperational tax website even to government water bills and the options to be selected do not provide a choice for "Utility Bills", none even close, only "Other" "matches" it. Absolute waste of resources and funds.

Regarding the PRO and CON voting it is possible that the government paid trolls (shills) that are plenty around the internet, could be voting the way they are paid for. Unfair and illegal, but hard to prove.

[PacoMartin]

Originally Posted by newtocolumbia

I agree on a healthy balance per individual needs; or an alternative

Sweden is having a national discussion about this topic. With nearly all transactions in the country being done without cash and only about equivalent of US$600 in cash per capita in circulation (vs over $4000 in the USA) the question of the rights of the individual who wants to use cash are preserved

Since you can only get cash from an ATM in Sweden (not from bank teller in nearly all banks) the lack of any ATMs in small towns becomes a problem. Also many businesses simply refuse to accept cash in payment.

The central bank in Sweden believes the answer is in digital currency. Although this would be another electronic transaction, it would be backed by the central bank. Commercial bank money including credit cards is basically backed by debt. And commercial banks can go bankrupt, whereas the "central bank" cannot go bankrupt.

Of course if there is a coronal mass ejection (CME) equivalent to the one that occurred on 1 September 1859. According to a report published in 2012 by physicist Pete Riley of Predictive Science Inc., the chance of Earth being hit by a similar class storm between 2012 and 2022 is 12%.

As 1859 was well before the electronic age, a similar event may cause widespread havoc to our age, and to the system of cashless transactions in general.

I was caught in the riots St Croix in 1989 during the aftermath of Hurricane Hugo, and I can testify that when people are selling sandwiches for $10 consisting of two pieces of stale bread and slice of American cheese, your credit cards are not worth anything on an island with no electricity and lots of guns.