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Old 12-21-2017, 02:29 AM
 
4,174 posts, read 2,783,092 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Siegel View Post
Young, healthy people with some hustle in them can always find work. But a lot of people on welfare are (not to pull any punches) not very bright, crazy, drunk or on drugs, or have some other set of problems that make them poor prospects for getting any sort of job.

I'm not a liberal who wants to give away other people's money, but telling people to straighten up and fly right will only help a small percentage of them.
If any. The only question is whether we are better off helping them or stepping over them in the street. Or watching for them behind you at the ATM.

Some empathy, some pragmatism.
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Old 12-21-2017, 02:31 AM
 
272 posts, read 103,024 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclist1968 View Post
Get the rich off of welfare?? that will save the most $$ as there are more rich people on it than the poor, by far. Also make the rich pay their fair share of taxes
when politicians (on both sides) start spending tax money logically efficiently and intelligently to benefit this country i can get behind this "fair share" thing.i'm talking fixing the disgraceful infrastructure and education in this county. i'm talking healthcare- but not oh let's make rich people pay a lot of money so we can pay 500-1000 dollars a month per person so everyone has health insurance as we're bought and paid for by pharmaceutical companies.healthcare costs way more than it should in this country. there is zero reason for example that i can't legally buy prescription drugs that are exactly the same from a foreign country at a small fraction of what it costs here. well other than the fact people taking bribes tend to not bite the hand that feeds them.


right now there's nothing fair about the way they spend money and nothing fair about politicians (on both sides) being bought and paid for corrupt corporate shills who waste tax money while taking legal and illegal bribes screwing over the people they're supposed to represent.even if it's don't out of pure selfishness i can't begrudge a wealthy person who wants to keep more of their own money rather than watch the gov't light it on fire. and despite the rheteric of the "evil 1%" a lot of rich people (usually the self made ones) do a lot of good with their money for other people.of course others are just total greedy pond scum.

i feel bad for legitimately sick people and children with **** for parents.however there is nothing fair about grown adults year in year out who pay nothing or next to nothing in taxes while taking a lot of money out of the tax system.

politicians on both sides are great at turning citizens on each other while they rob us blind and enrich themselves.
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Old 12-21-2017, 02:39 AM
 
272 posts, read 103,024 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WestieJeff View Post
Let's talk about each of your points:

1) Work 20 hours per week.
Who watches their kids while they are gone? How do they get transportation to/from said work? Poor people have to solve these types of problems. Primarily, when you add caring for kids to the mix it gets complex. When you say "just figure it out, make it work", the kids always get the short end of that stick which perpetuates the cycle of dependence on the system.

2) Get on some program to prevent further births.
Specifics please?? Forced sterilization would not be tolerated so let's scratch that one. Really the only option here is some incentivization program which if you hate welfare, you'd probably hate that too. The problem with births is that one of the most pleasurable things to do (and cheapest, which helps if you're poor) causes them.

3) Random drug testing.
I'm not against this, but many states have already done this and proven it costs more to perform the tests and administer the programs than is saved. So if you want to do it out of some moral principle, that is fine, just realize it is a net cost.

At the end of the day, you always have to to answer the question, what happens when they "run out"? Do we kick them out on the street? Kick their kids out on the street? What happens then? The kids have close to zero chance of improving their lives at that point. People will definitely steal from people before they allow themselves to starve.

I believe the long term answer is helping people improve their lives. Education is key. Giving people a real shot at improving their lives will give them a chance to get off the system. Unfortunately I think that comes often with more assistance. People with kids need to have affordable childcare options to be able to work or attend school, just as one example.

There will always be some leeches and people with mental illness, addiction, etc. that aren't really able to be saved, but I believe most people want to have a purpose and do well in life and given the opportunity can improve their lives.
1)people's kids arent toddlers forever. at some point they have to go to school and they can easily work 20 hours a week. people shouldn't keep pumping out kids they can't afford.of course there's the catch 22- you don't want to reward people pumping out more kids, but you don't want to punish those kids either.

2)the problem isn't that sex is pleasurable and "free". the problem is stupid people make stupid decisions. i doubt smart people with money have less sex than poor people. it's just on average they make much better decisions especially when it concerns those with serious life consequences. there's a reason poor people on average have more kids- bad decision making.

of course it's not politically correct to say this. and when someone does say this people love to talk about women who were married with 3 kids, husband died (or something along those lines) and now they're in a very bad unfortunate situation. as sad as stuff like that is, they're the exceptions and exceptions don't prove rules.

3) you're right but i think this could still be done a lot cheaper than it's currently being done.

i agree with you we need much better education. we also need trade schools. everyone isn't cut out for college (and that's not an insult) I know plenty of people who are mechanics electricians plumbers etc and make good money. i also know plenty of people who went to some nonsense college, majored in something worthless, owe 6 figures and want to blame others for their bad situation. mindlessly letting people borrow crazy amounts of money for college serves to drive up tuition rates and little else.that money could be spent a lot better.
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Old 12-21-2017, 02:41 AM
 
272 posts, read 103,024 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tlarnla View Post
What they really need to cut is corporate welfare.

The working class pays so much in taxes to be handed over to big corporations in the forms of subsidies and bail-outs.
this would also be fantastic. unlikely when those corporations are bribing the people making the decisions.
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Old 12-21-2017, 02:49 AM
 
Location: Cebu, Philippines
2,168 posts, read 797,279 times
Reputation: 4348
Our wealth distribution system was devised when there was more work than men, by economists who never dreamed it would be otherwise. But the world now has more men than work. If we do not come to grips with that simple fact, we are speeding headlong to an unimaginable human social catastrophe. We must find a way to distribute wealth to men whose work is not needed.

Simply forcing men to do non-productive jobs is not the answer. Nor, is it useful to clutter the work place with people who have no desire nor inclination to be productive workers. Their output is unsatisfactory, and the are disruptive to both the morale and flow of the workplace. Just identify the workers who are disinclined to be productive, and pay them a basic sustenance wage to stay home.
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Old 12-21-2017, 06:32 AM
 
3,720 posts, read 1,667,677 times
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The welfare system was fixed in the 90's. Work and training requirements were put it. Time limits were put in.

President Obama weakened a lot of this. SSI has to be fixed too.
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Old 12-21-2017, 06:44 AM
 
5,600 posts, read 4,206,197 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cebuan View Post
...... We must find a way to distribute wealth to men whose work is not needed.

.......
Why? What happened to the idea of personal freedom? If someone chooses a field with low demand and low pay maybe they should consider the options. Most of us have faced numerous situations where we had to work hard to gain new employable skills and often have had to move to where there are jobs. We now have virtually no unemployment. That is way more opportunity than most of us had throughout our lives.
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Old 12-21-2017, 07:02 AM
 
Location: Houston, TX
13,146 posts, read 7,393,567 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hitpausebutton2 View Post
So seems our taxes are going to go up for the middle class and down for the rich.. So with that said, lets fix the welfare system. Here is my thoughts on what to do.

Work 20 hour week min job at any location. Get on some program to prevent further births of unattended accidents. Random drug and drink tests. Max you can stay on the welfare system and housing is 2 years. By then you should be able to gain enough experience in the work force to get full time and better housing.

So any ideas on what to do next? Think if you slap some pretty good restrictions on these programs, it will help our economics in jobs.?
Most of these are good ideas, but there are several problems most of these caused by the Republicans. Work a 20 hour/week job doing what? How do you afford housing? In many areas, the housing cost is astronomical and the national minimum wage hasn't increased in years. It's still $7.25/hour, while rents for an apt/house are at least $900 or $1000/month in many areas. And birth control programs? Also a great idea, except Republicans are defunding Planned Parenthood and removing contraception from insurance coverage because their loving God tells them to
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Old 12-21-2017, 07:26 AM
 
289 posts, read 427,012 times
Reputation: 893
"Marketplace" economic podcast has a very interesting secondary show called "The Uncertain Hour" which recently had a multi-episode series in the current reality of welfare distribution (specifically TANF) at this point. What was interesting was that in many states, as little as 9% of the allocated funds actually go to what we consider welfare (in the case of Oklahoma.. while $70 million went to a private company for "marriage classes" which were free to all regardless of income.) In another state, welfare money was being used for scholarships to expensive private colleges (even for people who would be considered upper middle class) on the basis that people with higher education are less likely to have out of wedlock babies. States are using the block grants for all kinds of things that aren't actually welfare at this point. I would encourage people on all sides of this issue to check it out...
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Old 12-21-2017, 07:27 AM
 
Location: Fairfax County, VA
1,387 posts, read 601,424 times
Reputation: 2723
To today's Republicans, fixing welfare means nothing more or less than getting rid of it, and they'll gin up whatever nonsense propaganda claims they might need to lure the ignorant into supporting them. They would just as soon see the national motto changed from "In God We Trust" (already a bad choice) to "Starve in the Streets" (an even worse one.) That's just who these people have become.

The more clear and present danger at the moment however is a raid on the massive assets of SS and Medicare. The people who took away your defined benefit pensions and stuck you instead with all the risk of a 401-k want to tap into and slowly suck away the security of having income and health care insurance in your old age. These creeps would sell out their own grandmothers for a few bucks. They aren't going to be holding back in the case of you and yours. The wolves will be at your door shortly after the first of the year. Bush-43 tried this twice and failed, but creeps just don't give up on their god-awful ideas that easily.

Last edited by 17thAndK; 12-21-2017 at 07:36 AM..
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