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Old 01-15-2018, 04:34 PM
 
2,391 posts, read 2,118,047 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ro2113 View Post
Do you have any concrete numbers to back up your point? How much money do you really think a university spends on sports like water polo? I'm guessing not much compared to the rest of the budget.
Water polo specifically? Probably not THAT much. But given it generates virtually zero revenue, it's still a terrible investment.
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Old 01-15-2018, 05:19 PM
 
Location: Aurora Denveralis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steveklein View Post
Water polo specifically? Probably not THAT much. But given it generates virtually zero revenue, it's still a terrible investment.
Spoken like an MBA. Is it possible that college sports have another, you know, point and purpose than to generate millions in TV rights revenue?
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Old 01-15-2018, 05:53 PM
 
2,391 posts, read 2,118,047 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quietude View Post
Spoken like an MBA. Is it possible that college sports have another, you know, point and purpose than to generate millions in TV rights revenue?
Yeah... let me tell you how ESPN is clamoring for the rights to broadcast water polo matches
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Old 01-15-2018, 06:16 PM
 
Location: Aurora Denveralis
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Originally Posted by steveklein View Post
Yeah... let me tell you how ESPN is clamoring for the rights to broadcast water polo matches
Good thing you're not afraid of whooshing sounds.
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Old 01-16-2018, 10:56 AM
 
Location: Wyoming
9,165 posts, read 16,515,249 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liar_Liar View Post
...
Why can't there be a law that prevent potential employers from figuring out which university you attend??They can still check whether or not you have w.e. degree or license you claim, what state and year you finished... but not the name of the school. There shouldn't even be an option where the employee can give the employer permission to find out.

This would make expensive private universities less desirable thus reducing their price. What do you think?
It would be rude of me to say what I think, but I will say it's a very bad idea.

You seem to believe that employers preferring grads from top schools is discrimination, like wanting those with one skin color over another or one gender over another. (Neither of which, btw, prohibits employers from knowing the gender and race of potential job candidates.) Some schools actually prepare students better for the real world. It's not always the Ivy League schools that win this one, but I'd imagine it is more often than not.

I used to hire a lot of college grads from journalism schools, most of whom came from a small handful of universities. I knew the deans of those journalism departments and trusted them and their associates to give me a little more insight into their students than simply transcripts. Their recommendations and observations were much more important in my selections than the student's gpa, and they were usually spot-on. This was true whether I was hiring fresh grads or those who had been in the field working for a few years, and whether I was looking for a beat reporter, an editor or a beat reporter with the qualities to become an editor.

Students also could look to their deans or instructors for a little insight about their chances of advancement in my company. Deans want their top students to do well after graduation. It makes their department look good if they produce successful professionals, bad if they don't.

You can't take that tool away from students and employers. Students deserve it, and businesses who support the colleges deserve it.

Students who pay top-dollar (or win scholarships and grants) to graduate from the best schools probably deserve the best jobs upon graduation. If that doesn't sound fair to you, it's probably because you didn't attend one of the top schools. It's just the way it is. You usually get what you pay for, whether you're buying an education or a new car.

As others have already stated, where you attend school matters much more immediately after graduation than 10 years down the road. You might have to work a little harder to be noticed if you attended Podunk Christian College rather than Yale University, but it can be done.


A former colleague of mine graduated from a tiny private college in Nebraska -- little more than a community college. Upon graduation he worked for peanuts for 8-10 years at a small weekly newspaper, first as sports editor then as news editor, but then he started advancing in both politics and business. The last I knew he had become an east coast media mogul, was (iirc) chairman of one of Chicago's larger banks but was spending much of his time on his yacht in the Atlantic. Now there's financial success, and it didn't take a sheepskin from a prestigious university to do it.

He was proud of his alma mater, small as it was, and I'm sure it's now proud of him. He couldn't have had that success without a college degree, but in the long run, it didn't mattered squat where it came from. You also have that important degree that you should be proud to hold. Your success from here on out depends not on whether you attended Yale or Podunk but on your drive, confidence and smarts.
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Old 01-16-2018, 11:49 AM
 
Location: Aurora Denveralis
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Originally Posted by WyoNewk View Post
Students who pay top-dollar (or win scholarships and grants) to graduate from the best schools...
Excellent post, but I wanted to poke at this statement. It's very conventional thinking, but I believe a case can be made that the truly elite students pay less to go to truly elite schools than lesser candidates pay to lower-ranked schools.

If you truly qualify for an Ivy League school, or Stanford, or a school at that level, you are likely to pay less for your degree than someone who essentially has to buy their way through a wannabe U. That's really the crux of the problem to me: That the demand for a degree, any degree, to get any worthwhile job has pushed vast numbers of indifferently-qualified students to get somewhat unnecessary job-ticket degrees... and at ever-inflating costs to boot.

It's time to rethink secondary education top to bottom. I am not sure that will happen in any good way.
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Old 01-16-2018, 11:59 AM
 
Location: Denver CO
18,977 posts, read 10,040,378 times
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Originally Posted by Quietude View Post
Excellent post, but I wanted to poke at this statement. It's very conventional thinking, but I believe a case can be made that the truly elite students pay less to go to truly elite schools than lesser candidates pay to lower-ranked schools.

If you truly qualify for an Ivy League school, or Stanford, or a school at that level, you are likely to pay less for your degree than someone who essentially has to buy their way through a wannabe U. That's really the crux of the problem to me: That the demand for a degree, any degree, to get any worthwhile job has pushed vast numbers of indifferently-qualified students to get somewhat unnecessary job-ticket degrees... and at ever-inflating costs to boot.

It's time to rethink secondary education top to bottom. I am not sure that will happen in any good way.
The Ivy League schools do not have scholarships. They offer need-based financial aid only. There are outside scholarships that some people get but it's not directly through the school.

Now, the reality is that they have large endowments and a pretty generous definition of need. Families with incomes into the mid 100s will often qualify for a decent amount of aid. So in some cases, it can certainly be less expensive to go to an Ivy vs. another private school that can't afford to give as much even if they give merit based scholarship money.

But for kids from wealthy families, it will not cost less because they won't qualify for need based aid.
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Old 01-16-2018, 12:11 PM
 
Location: Aurora Denveralis
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Originally Posted by emm74 View Post
Now, the reality is that they have large endowments and a pretty generous definition of need. Families with incomes into the mid 100s will often qualify for a decent amount of aid. So in some cases, it can certainly be less expensive to go to an Ivy vs. another private school that can't afford to give as much even if they give merit based scholarship money.

But for kids from wealthy families, it will not cost less because they won't qualify for need based aid.
We can leave (truly) rich kids out of the equation for several reasons - mostly, that they are a minority of students and often have generational alumni reasons and support for those schools.

I will have to dig, but I've read well-researched articles on the relative costs of students at the top tier schools and those at the massive tiers below. I don't think there's any question that the incidence of crushing student debt is far less at the top than it is for the U. of Jobtickets masses, and it's not entirely because Mummy and Daddums can write really big checks.
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Old 01-16-2018, 12:11 PM
 
Location: The analog world
15,572 posts, read 8,742,257 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quietude View Post
Excellent post, but I wanted to poke at this statement. It's very conventional thinking, but I believe a case can be made that the truly elite students pay less to go to truly elite schools than lesser candidates pay to lower-ranked schools.

If you truly qualify for an Ivy League school, or Stanford, or a school at that level, you are likely to pay less for your degree than someone who essentially has to buy their way through a wannabe U. That's really the crux of the problem to me: That the demand for a degree, any degree, to get any worthwhile job has pushed vast numbers of indifferently-qualified students to get somewhat unnecessary job-ticket degrees... and at ever-inflating costs to boot.

It's time to rethink secondary education top to bottom. I am not sure that will happen in any good way.
The Ivy League enrolls only about 125k students, including both undergraduate and graduate programs. A lot of highly-qualified and well-compensated people attended schools that are not Ivies or Stanford (or Cal Tech or MIT), and none of those schools should be characterized as Wannabe U's. Now I do agree that the costs to attend university are out of hand, and I'm still smarting from the tuition checks I just wrote for my two college students -- Thank God one of them is almost finished! -- but let's not fall into the trap of thinking that the only education worth having is an Ivy League one.

Last edited by randomparent; 01-16-2018 at 12:33 PM..
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Old 01-16-2018, 12:53 PM
 
Location: Aurora Denveralis
2,999 posts, read 1,017,500 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by randomparent View Post
The Ivy League enrolls only about 125k students, including both undergraduate and graduate programs. A lot of highly-qualified and well-compensated people attended schools that are not Ivies or Stanford (or Cal Tech or MIT), and none of those schools should be characterized as Wannabe U's. Now I do agree that the costs to attend university are out of hand, and I'm still smarting from the tuition checks I just wrote for my two college students -- Thank God one of them is almost finished! -- but let's not fall into the trap of thinking that the only education worth having is an Ivy League one.
We're going to have to agree to a certain amount of disagreement here; I see the situation from a fairly radical viewpoint that doesn't include bland assumptions about graduate salaries and "worth" of an education primarily intended for elevated employment.

But no, I do not think only Ivy-level education is worthwhile. Anything but.

I think that far too many students (hundreds of thousands, if not millions) attend the wrong schools for the wrong reasons and the wrong goals... and at far too much money. What I hand-flap at as "Midwestergan U" and such is not a dismissal of middle-tier schools - nearly all of those schools have a body of students who are in the right college, for the right major, for the right reasons, and will come away with a truly valuable educational asset.

But... many of those schools also have a bloated body of indifferent, marginally-qualified students who have to go somewhere to get their STEM job ticket, cuz that's where the money is, dude. And these students pay a Rolls-Royce price for what's marketed to them as a top-tier education, because money substitutes for all their shortcomings and gets them that prized work permit. Midwestergan sent them the acceptance (Thank God!) and away they go, off to four or five years in the bottomless debt mines so they can work for Microsoft.

And, to bring this around, high-profiles sports departments are the leading marketing tool for these otherwise rather indistinguishable schools.

So maybe your Iowa or Alabama or Michigan or Indiana degree is a gold-plated block in your professional and career status... or maybe it's just a piece of paper that tells employers you could pretend to stay awake for four years and might know something about the field stamped on it. But either way, it probably cost you four to five years of your peak earnings.
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