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Old 02-03-2018, 01:40 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wutitiz View Post
What's you opinion on why the West advanced while others lagged, over the past 5 centuries or so?
Good question!

One book that really led me off on a totally new tract was Buckminister Fuller's book, Operating Manual for Spaceship Earth (http://designsciencelab.com/resource...gManual_BF.pdf) He talks about the history he learned at Anapolis, the US Naval Academy, in a rant about the damages of specialization.

He talked about the Great Pirates. They became very good at hiding out in the Caribbean, after attacking and plundering the treasure-laden ships heading back to Europe. The Great Pirates became incredibly wealthy, eventually becoming powers behind the throne in European courts. They also had a naturally dynamic, social-Darwinistic form of governance, with effective leadership providing excellent rewards.

My research has lead me to believe these GPs were descendents of the Templars, and the Venetian bankers who fled from Phoencia, and the foundation of the big banks that control the world today.

Another excellent book is The Many-Headed Hydra, Sailors, Slaves, Commoners and the Hidden History by Peter Linebaugh, Marcus Rediker,
(https://libcom.org/files/Linebaugh%2...Hidden%20H.pdf) talked about the constant efforts, starting about 1600, between the rich industrialists (probably financed by the GPs) and the indigenous peoples on the British Isles, who were impoverished by the encroachment and capitalization of natural resources, and then shipped to the Colonies as slave and prisoners.

Another book about the same period of time, Pawns in the Game, by William Guy Carr, (https://politik.brunner-architekt.ch...n_the_Game.pdf) talks about the same period of time and place, staring in the 1500s. This book focuses on the conflict between the bankers and the governments. Starting in Holland, the first Parliament was created. The bankers thinking Parliamentarians would be easier to control than a King. Also, the first corporation, the Dutch East India Company, was formed.

It didn't work out quite as expected, and the bankers moved to England to finance the overthrow of the British king and install a new king that granted them autonomy in the City of London. To this day, the owners of the City of London are still anonymous.

But the central banks, with their base in the City of London, have expanded throughout the world, about the last place uncontrolled by them is the Middle East.

A lot of this material is shrouded in secrecy, so it's difficult to assess what actions resulted in what consequences.

I think this might provide some hints as to what is going on. Or not.
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Old 02-03-2018, 02:20 PM
 
Location: Prepperland
13,115 posts, read 9,199,435 times
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Land: Use and Exclusivity
. . . The source of conflict between primitive hunter / gatherer societies, nomads and settled agrarian societies.
● [] Hunter / gatherer - needs the greatest amount of resources
● [] Herdsman / Nomad - needs a particular condition, and is more efficient than hunter / gatherers
● [] Farmer / Agrarian - requires exclusive ownership of land and resources, but can support the most people on the least amount of land and resources
. . . . .
Inherent conflict exists between each groupís mode of survival when it impinges upon others.

In terms of survival, the mode that supports the most people has an inherent moral imperative, despite the claims and objections of the indigenous people who previously occupied the land. This justified the colonization of underdeveloped lands, and the expulsion of stone-age hunters / gatherers, who could not adapt to exclusive ownership and private property rights of the agrarian settlers. And it partially mitigates the attempt to modify their behavior and culture so that they would not pose a threat to the new paradigm.
The mutually exclusive societies would have had to fight to the point where one would have to be annihilated. The descendants, or lack thereof, would determine the winners and losers.

. . . . .
Historical revisionism notwithstanding, the age old conflict between nomads, herdsmen and settled farmers was the underlying issue resulting in the rise of Europe.

Advanced agriculture enables far more people to exist per unit of land, and justifies the exclusion of nomads as well as herdsmen from improved agricultural lands.
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Old 02-03-2018, 09:48 PM
 
Location: Blue Ridge
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimRom View Post
....

The argument can be made that prior to the beginning of the Crusades, Islamic culture set the entire world on a course that we are still somewhat following today. If you regularly deal with math or science, you can ultimately thank a Muslim.
A Egyptian maybe, but not a Muslim as you're in the wrong century as that dates back to around 2500 BC
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Old 02-04-2018, 06:52 PM
 
Location: Old Bellevue, WA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southwest88 View Post
Yes & no. Silver & gold, tobacco, chocolate, corn, potatoes, codexes & etc. poured through Spain from the Americas, Philippines, China. But Spain expelled or converted the Jews & Islamics - who could have invested the money instead of merely buying luxury goods from abroad. The raw money pouring through caused massive inflation, & the lack of economic opportunity caused stagnation in the population & low growth in the cities & rural areas.

The money went into dead hands, or was simply exported in exchange for goods that probably could have been manufactured in Spain, & developed the Spanish economy, regions, government, education.


This brings up a related question: why did the Spanish who were the first to sail to America (and DeGama the first to India, via the cape of Africa), seem to preside over an empire that fizzled, whereas the Anglosphere (US, AUS, CAN, NZ, etc) turned into an econ/tech powerhouse?
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Old 02-04-2018, 06:59 PM
 
Location: Old Bellevue, WA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ezrider62 View Post
The first part, Invention and the industrial revolution did it IMO. Industrial revolution began in the west and invention happened everywhere, but taking ideas and putting them into mass production can do wonders.

Second part, the west makes the very best war machines and war technology available and spends most of it's money on it. They leave the small money for other countries, it is no longer a viable business in the west, war is.
This brings up one of the interesting points about Japan. One of their big priorities after the civil war of 1870 was the development of modern weaponry. Both the Chinese and Japanese had been taking lumps in the 19th cent from the Brits, who wanted trade opened up, and were willing to use their naval power to do so.


I think that the need to develop weaponry was one of the factors that made Japan (in contrast to the rest of the Far East) the tech/econ leader that it became by the mid to late 20th century.
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Old 02-04-2018, 08:23 PM
 
Location: New Mexico
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Default Nothing succeeded like success

Quote:
Originally Posted by wutitiz View Post
This brings up a related question: why did the Spanish who were the first to sail to America (and DeGama the first to India, via the cape of Africa), seem to preside over an empire that fizzled, whereas the Anglosphere (US, AUS, CAN, NZ, etc) turned into an econ/tech powerhouse?
Yah, the Iberian empires didn't really seem to take off. Spain drew in enormous wealth & had a large population of soldiers & men @ war, perfect for overseas conquest. But the money merely poured through Spain - they'd expelled or converted the Jews & Islamics who could have invested the money, & made it more productive, & moved Spain into the Industrial Revolution. With the Islamic agricultural practices & technology they inherited, Spain could have pioneered a lot of agricultural practices in Europe, plus they monopolized tobacco, chocolate, cacao, potatoes, corn & other crops from the Americas for a time.

None of that happened. The silver & spice trade profits went into imported luxuries, or into religious wars in Europe, or protecting/promoting the Papacy, & so on. Spain's government & economy ossified, & very little was accomplished in terms of economic development. The financial & economic powerhouses in Europe benefitted more from the Spanish Empire than Spain did.

Not sure about Portugal, I know Spain's history better on this topic.
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Old 02-04-2018, 08:24 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wutitiz View Post
This brings up one of the interesting points about Japan. One of their big priorities after the civil war of 1870 was the development of modern weaponry. Both the Chinese and Japanese had been taking lumps in the 19th cent from the Brits, who wanted trade opened up, and were willing to use their naval power to do so.


I think that the need to develop weaponry was one of the factors that made Japan (in contrast to the rest of the Far East) the tech/econ leader that it became by the mid to late 20th century.
Could be true plus Japan was the first Asian country to produce anything on an industrial scale. I can remember when I was a kid Japan was making almost everything just as China is now.
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Old 02-04-2018, 10:58 PM
 
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I would the easy answer is that there was a lot of in-fighting and warring with neighbors. Some faired better and stronger through it, while other carry a bitter and destructive relationship towards each other today. The Western countries colonized areas there were rich in resources (rare earths and minerals in Africa, oil in the Middle East & South America, sugar/tobacco/cotton in the Caribbean and South). When transit advanced by way of ocean liner, freighter, and cargo planes the geographical barriers were loosened and supply lines became more viable and efficient.
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Old 02-05-2018, 12:51 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikala43 View Post
To start with most stars are Arabic names.
Naming things and understanding them are two completely different things. When you live in an area of dry still air you see more clearly to the sky than moist windy Europe.
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Old 02-06-2018, 12:27 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Troyfan View Post
1500 is approximately when the printing press was invented, the Protestant Reformation began and the Renaissance started. 100 years, give or take.

As much as things were not happening in the Orient, things were in the West. New ways of thinking and new means of spreading ideas happened in the West but not the East. (The Chinese actually had a printing press type machine earlier but, whether because of cultural impediments or difficulties with their pictorially based alphabet, it didn't seem to accomplish much.)

What happened, or didn't, in the Near East, the Muslim lands, could be tied to their religion. I don't know. But it is hard to explain otherwise how once advanced societies just stopped developing. Their military setbacks in Spain and Austria, sort of bracketing 1500, might be the cause as it seems that major military defeats stop societies in their tracks.
The question is too complicated for a forum post. New World wealth is unquestionably part of the rise of European civilization in the 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th, and 20th centuries. The New World was largely depopulated by disease (carried by the livestock of European explorers) and subsequently claimed by the European powers.

Separately, the Near East remained a major power with an advanced economy until the fall of the Ottomans after WWI. China was ravaged by war. The Qing conquest claimed an estimated 25 million people.

The African continent faced disease from the arrival of European explorers than depopulation and destabilization through the Arab Slave Trade and the Triangular Trade, as Africans were bought & shipped first to the Arab world, then across the ocean to the New World.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wutitiz View Post
This brings up a related question: why did the Spanish who were the first to sail to America (and DeGama the first to India, via the cape of Africa), seem to preside over an empire that fizzled, whereas the Anglosphere (US, AUS, CAN, NZ, etc) turned into an econ/tech powerhouse?
Tea, tobacco, and cotton proved a lot more valuable than sugar.
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