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Old 03-04-2018, 07:07 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redguard57 View Post



Public sector unions do not manage. They mediate & negotiate. You won't find an AFT rep making decisions on whether Ms. Smith will teach 3rd or 5th grade. Those decisions are made by principals and school boards. The union has simply negotiated on the teachers' behalf for health insurance, salary, etc...

It's a myth that public sector unions protect the incompetent. The incompetent can easily be fired if administrators document said incompetence.
In NY they have "rubber rooms" for incompetent teachers. They go there, get paid, don't do anything. This goes on for years.

In NY, principals and unionized. School boards are run by unions. As is the PTA. Also the State Education Dept. and the Board of Regents. These bureaucracies set school policies so policies are set by the unions.
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Old 03-04-2018, 08:08 AM
 
Location: la la land
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Originally Posted by wutitiz View Post
It's not a myth in my state (WA). A few years ago a worker at a juvenile detention facility was faced with a bunch of issues--inappropriate touching of inmates, past criminal history, etc.
Local News | DSHS dilemma: Can it fire ex-con? | Seattle Times Newspaper

There are many such cases; I happen to remember this one because I wrote a letter to the editor about it. The agency head at the time said that getting rid of a bad employee was a "hellacious process."
You're confused, that has nothing to do with a union, the only time 'union' is mentioned is a statement that the union didn't support the new background check policy. Grounds for employee termination are usually covered in civil service commission rules. I don't see that a serious effort was even made to fire him. He was demoted and transferred and the personnel board affirmed that action https://prb.wa.gov/sites/default/fil...MO-01-0007.pdf
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Old 03-04-2018, 08:26 AM
 
Location: la la land
27,140 posts, read 11,338,839 times
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Originally Posted by Troyfan View Post
In NY they have "rubber rooms" for incompetent teachers. They go there, get paid, don't do anything. This goes on for years.

In NY, principals and unionized. School boards are run by unions. As is the PTA. Also the State Education Dept. and the Board of Regents. These bureaucracies set school policies so policies are set by the unions.
The "rubber rooms" are not only for teachers who are incompetent:

"Many ended up ousted from their positions for different reasons: 38 percent came from schools that closed; 32 percent were there because of legal or disciplinary cases; and the other 30 percent landed there following a school’s budget reduction or enrollment loss, according to the DOE." https://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/201...ve-rubber-room

According to that article and others, the ATR teachers will be placed in schools with openings rather than filling those openings with new hires. New York probably needs to review their civil service rules for terminating tenured teachers and start disciplinary hearings sooner than they do. Without a doubt the process for terminating a tenured teacher is far too complicated and takes too much time, but states and local school districts can change those rules.
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Old 03-05-2018, 06:51 AM
 
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Originally Posted by 2sleepy View Post
The "rubber rooms" are not only for teachers who are incompetent:



According to that article and others, the ATR teachers will be placed in schools with openings rather than filling those openings with new hires. New York probably needs to review their civil service rules for terminating tenured teachers and start disciplinary hearings sooner than they do. Without a doubt the process for terminating a tenured teacher is far too complicated and takes too much time, but states and local school districts can change those rules.
That's a great idea except the people doing the reviewing would be union reps or hacks. You have to understand that public employee unions control NY. Every aspect of it. Nothing that threatens their rule will ever come to pass. Their rule is absolute and total.
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Old 03-05-2018, 07:39 AM
 
Location: la la land
27,140 posts, read 11,338,839 times
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Originally Posted by Troyfan View Post
That's a great idea except the people doing the reviewing would be union reps or hacks. You have to understand that public employee unions control NY. Every aspect of it. Nothing that threatens their rule will ever come to pass. Their rule is absolute and total.
I don't quite understand what you are saying. 32% of teachers in ATR are there for disciplinary reasons, the rest are there because of school closings or downsizing. The plan is to place ATR teachers in open positions rather than hire from outside. From what I've read, disciplinary matters are heard by an independent arbitrator who is chosen mutually by the union and the administration. It appears that the biggest problem is the delay in having those matters heard. You give unions far too much credit
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Old 03-05-2018, 09:03 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2sleepy View Post
I don't quite understand what you are saying. 32% of teachers in ATR are there for disciplinary reasons, the rest are there because of school closings or downsizing. The plan is to place ATR teachers in open positions rather than hire from outside. From what I've read, disciplinary matters are heard by an independent arbitrator who is chosen mutually by the union and the administration. It appears that the biggest problem is the delay in having those matters heard. You give unions far too much credit
It's not only teacher unions. They're the biggest fish but there're a lot of other ones. It's budget time right now. The unions are all lined up to get their piece (of OUR pie), as if they didn't already have the biggest pieces.

Live: nursing home funding (nursing home protection plan, Albany has always done the right thing before, yada yada)
Live: What is NYSCOBA (the spokes lackey tells us:..they run little leagues, they pet dogs and by the way they're prison guards)

Anyway, new this morning: a Schenectady cop sergeant brags about a video of a cop beating up a lady, this is what you get if you resist.

They run the state.

As far as school closing, they are as common as hens' teeth. And the "independent arbitrator" is a union buddy picked from a list of union buddies to apply union designed rules.
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Old 03-06-2018, 06:37 AM
 
690 posts, read 317,194 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Troyfan View Post
It's not only teacher unions. They're the biggest fish but there're a lot of other ones. It's budget time right now. The unions are all lined up to get their piece (of OUR pie), as if they didn't already have the biggest pieces.

Live: nursing home funding (nursing home protection plan, Albany has always done the right thing before, yada yada)
Live: What is NYSCOBA (the spokes lackey tells us:..they run little leagues, they pet dogs and by the way they're prison guards)

Anyway, new this morning: a Schenectady cop sergeant brags about a video of a cop beating up a lady, this is what you get if you resist.

They run the state.

As far as school closing, they are as common as hens' teeth. And the "independent arbitrator" is a union buddy picked from a list of union buddies to apply union designed rules.
They are not the "biggest fish". By far the police and fire are a much larger problem (and I don't think teachers are a problem). I would much rather pay a decent retirement to a teacher who spent 35 years in a classroom. Usually they are a minimum 57 years old (for 35 years of service). Rather than pay a cop or fireman at 50 years old with only 20 years of service. Who then usually go work for another government agency (while drawing there police/fire pension fully) to get another pension.
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Old 03-06-2018, 06:48 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Liledgy View Post
They are not the "biggest fish". By far the police and fire are a much larger problem (and I don't think teachers are a problem). I would much rather pay a decent retirement to a teacher who spent 35 years in a classroom. Usually they are a minimum 57 years old (for 35 years of service). Rather than pay a cop or fireman at 50 years old with only 20 years of service. Who then usually go work for another government agency (while drawing there police/fire pension fully) to get another pension.
Yes and no. Teachers have more muscle because they're far more of them. But I agree with the pension stuff.

We actually get to pay for 3 times as many cops as are working. A cop works 20 years then retires for 40, all on the payroll (pensions come from pension fund, but the money put in is from us and could be in our pensions).

The double dipping is rampant at the higher levels. They even make big jobs in some cases for guys they really like.

One other thing about teacher pensions. My wife was an aide. A friend of hers, a kindergarten teacher, made +- $100,000 a year. Her pension was about the same. Plus, free medical for life (except $10 deductible). This was around 2002 or so. Pretty nice.
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Old 03-06-2018, 03:15 PM
 
Location: Full time in the RV
2,685 posts, read 6,125,301 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2sleepy View Post
go negotiate with the CEO for a pay raise and come back and tell us how well that worked for you. Wage stagnation is due at least in part to the decline of unions in the private sector.
I'll share my experience with "negotiation with the CEO" as a non union member of management with a union workforce over a silly math error involving vacation accrual. This is in a local government with 1000+ employees.

Vacation accural rates are divided into three tiers depending on seniority. There is another division if your normal scheduled workweek was over 40 hours. My department was 24/7 so nearly everyone, including myself, was in the over 40 hour category. This system applied to all 1000+ employees and was decided decades ago. When my department unionized these were agreed to.

During a contract negotiation these were supposed to remain the same, but when the printed contract was signed no one noticed that the amounts to the right of the decimal place in two (of the three) tiers were wrong. No one knew why. Depending on the tier you received either 8 or 16 hours less vacation time per year. The union spotted this and wanted it changed. Management said no-you signed the contract. Fair enough. The next contract it was corrected.

About this time I got promoted to management and learned that this issue had not been corrected for the non union employees-me. I took a promotion with more pay but less vacation time. I learned one of my peers had been trying to fix this for two years. He was delayed and obstructed at every turn. It turns out the mistake was made when they switched payroll systems several years ago. Someone simply inputted the wrong numbers. Out of 1000+ employees, 11 of us non union management, myself included, fell into this void on the accrual matrix.

The only option was a formal complaint so the 11 of us collectively filed one. It turned into a theater of the absurd. The first formal meeting management was represented by our boss, the HR director, and two HR puppets, one of whom is an attorney. The HR puppets put on a show so ridiculous you could tell even they did not believe what they were saying. Turns out they were doing the bidding of the HR director who was there but said almost nothing. They actually had handouts, complete with an Excel spreadsheet, proposing different rates of accrual depending on what your actual first day working was in January. If you worked January 1 you would actually work more days that year so therefore get more vacation time. It went down if you worked January 2, etc. Totally insane. We asked questions and pointed out the absurdity but only got nonsensical answers.

The next step was the top boss and final step. This time it was only the two HR puppets. The HR director was not there. After our presentation the boss turned to the HR folks and asked their side. They said it was all in their report and pointed to it on the desk. This was good as I'm sure they didn't want to embarrass themselves in front of the top boss with that ridiculous presentation.

The top boss agreed to change it but wanted something in exchange-you know like happens in negotiations. We agreed to a lower cap on vacation payout (the same lower number the union employees had) when you leave. This was a no brainer concession as you can control that and few get to the cap anyway.
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Old 03-06-2018, 08:04 PM
 
690 posts, read 317,194 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Troyfan View Post
Yes and no. Teachers have more muscle because they're far more of them. But I agree with the pension stuff.

We actually get to pay for 3 times as many cops as are working. A cop works 20 years then retires for 40, all on the payroll (pensions come from pension fund, but the money put in is from us and could be in our pensions).

The double dipping is rampant at the higher levels. They even make big jobs in some cases for guys they really like.

One other thing about teacher pensions. My wife was an aide. A friend of hers, a kindergarten teacher, made +- $100,000 a year. Her pension was about the same. Plus, free medical for life (except $10 deductible). This was around 2002 or so. Pretty nice.
Cops/fireman (in Illinois) can't draw until 50 (unless they claim disability which many many do), but sure they can pull the plug at 40 and wait till 50 to draw. There is nothing close se to a police/fire pension. Not just on how early this hey can draw, but the % is much higher with less years of service, no reduction when the pensioner or there spouse dies, it stays the same, disability is HUGE, it's amazing how much they get hurt. Yet it's no where near the dangerous job that the trade unions do.
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