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Old 03-12-2018, 11:08 AM
 
Location: Aurora Denveralis
3,010 posts, read 1,023,325 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rruff View Post
...you really need to go back further to agrarian times, when people were largely self sufficient.
When were those? When did people live a life that needed nothing beyond the bounds of their land?
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Old 03-12-2018, 12:52 PM
 
Location: Ruidoso, NM
5,170 posts, read 4,733,092 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quietude View Post
When were those? When did people live a life that needed nothing beyond the bounds of their land?
They needed a lot less. They raised their own food, wove their own cloth, built their own homes, provided their own heat and energy, etc. Some people try that now and decide it isn't all that much fun...
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Old 03-12-2018, 01:40 PM
 
Location: The Triad (NC)
26,853 posts, read 57,874,473 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rruff View Post
They raised their own food, wove their own cloth, built their own homes, provided their own heat
and energy, etc. Some people try that now and decide it isn't all that much fun...
Ya know why? Because it isn't all that much fun
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Old 03-12-2018, 01:44 PM
 
Location: Aurora Denveralis
3,010 posts, read 1,023,325 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rruff View Post
They needed a lot less. They raised their own food, wove their own cloth, built their own homes, provided their own heat and energy, etc. Some people try that now and decide it isn't all that much fun...
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRational View Post
Ya know why? Because it isn't all that much fun
Yeah, I have a copy of Five Acres and Independence around here, too. I spent a lot of time going through it, looking for a single page that didn't need something from the other bajillion acres of Earth. Not sure if I ever found one.

BTTL types are a lot like hardcore Libertarians: they can go off in the woods and pretend, but that's all it is and no, it's not much fun in the end. "Nasty, brutish and short" - which starts with describing both sleep and meals under such "self sufficiency" and goes on.

Historically, it's hard to find any self-sufficient farms. Even the homesteaders brought steel tools, firearms, books and the Sears catalog with them.
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Old 03-13-2018, 07:09 AM
 
1,027 posts, read 559,669 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cebuan View Post
What if everybody took their whole paycheck and bought private commission lottery tickets, and then lived off the winnings. The GDP would immediately double, nearly everyone's good and bad luck would be in equilibrium, and their standard of living would remain about the same. But the GDP would double. What would that mean? ...
Cebuan, “if everybody took their whole paycheck and bought private commission lottery tickets, and then lived off the winnings”, that would not cause the nation's GDP to increase. What you're describing is transfers of wealth that do not affect the nation's GDP.

I consider a nation's GDP per capita and its median wage to be significant indications of the national “economic pie” and how it has it been distributed. I'm unaware of any more readily available statistics which more accurately provide a “picture” of the nation's current living standards.

Respectfully, Supposn
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Old 03-13-2018, 07:30 AM
 
1,027 posts, read 559,669 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6oo9 View Post
Healthcare cost is part of GDP service sector. If too many can not even access affordable healthcare due to high cost, then GDP will be very high but quality of life will not be high. In that situation, higher GDP and higher GDP growth is a bad thing.
6009, healthcare goods and services provided contribute to the nation's GDP. “If too many can not even access affordable healthcare due to high cost”, less healthcare's provided and the nation's GDP is not higher but it's rather less.

Respectfully, Supposn
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Old 03-13-2018, 08:02 AM
 
1,027 posts, read 559,669 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quietude View Post
That's so simplified as to be meaningless. A jobber who spends three seconds on a routine order of widgets but collects 20% for the pass-through adds nothing to the value of the widgets.

In some sort of closed village econ loop of farmers and craftsmen, maybe. But we kind of outgrew that model kind of a long time ago. Most goods have vast amounts of "non productive value" added to their cost.
Quietude, you're arguing contrary to free competitive marketplaces' determinations. The markets determined their preference and price for jobber's services which contribute to the costs of distributed widgets. It's among the aggregate goods and services that contribute to the nation's GDP.

GDP doesn't report what should have or not have been done, but rather what has been done.

Respectfully, Supposn
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Old 03-13-2018, 09:55 AM
 
1,027 posts, read 559,669 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoonose View Post
If there is demand not being met, then fulfilled with the new money, then of course GDP rises. Like in early WW2, we first needed huge amounts of new money created to then raise our GDP so that we could fight the War and service the civilian side at the same time.

'Wasteful' GDP is still GDP. It is ineffective GDP, and why standard of living is a better notion.

If we create 1M useful tools that might be effective GDP. 1M toys might be ineffective GDP. If we immediately burn or bury the toys, even less effective. But still part of GDP.
Hoonose,
QUOTE=Supposn;51293058]... GDP doesn't report what should have or not have been done, but rather what has been done.[/quote]
there's wasteful and intelligent spending, but no bank account statement or GDP statement is “wasteful”.

GDP determined by values of goods and services expressed in USA dollars valued at a particular time and only to that extent is our annual GDP's affected by the money or currency supply.

I remember USA's all-out economic commitments devoted to our second world war's efforts. We all, (government and civilians in aggregate) generally did what we could to not divert resources from those military efforts.

Respectfully, Supposn
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Old 03-13-2018, 10:11 AM
 
8,292 posts, read 3,456,454 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Supposn View Post
Hoonose,
QUOTE=Supposn;51293058]... GDP doesn't report what should have or not have been done, but rather what has been done.
there's wasteful and intelligent spending, but no bank account statement or GDP statement is “wasteful”.

GDP determined by values of goods and services expressed in USA dollars valued at a particular time and only to that extent is our annual GDP's affected by the money or currency supply.

I remember USA's all-out economic commitments devoted to our second world war's efforts. We all, (government and civilians in aggregate) generally did what we could to not divert resources from those military efforts.

Respectfully, Supposn[/quote]

Rationing of certain goods and War Bonds both reduced the public sector demands.
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Old 03-13-2018, 10:22 AM
 
1,027 posts, read 559,669 times
Reputation: 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoonose View Post
... I remember USA's all-out economic commitments devoted to our second world war's efforts. We all, (government and civilians in aggregate) generally did what we could to not divert resources from those military efforts.

Respectfully, Supposn
Rationing of certain goods and War Bonds both reduced the public sector demands.[/quote]

Hoonose, ... and temporarily our quality of life. Respectfully, Supposn
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