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Old 03-02-2018, 08:32 AM
 
Location: Philadelphia/South Jersey area
2,280 posts, read 1,033,859 times
Reputation: 7549

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Quote:
Originally Posted by redguard57 View Post
s.

For most of us, it'll mean higher prices for cars. It won't result in more industrial jobs. At worst, only about 15% of manufacturing jobs have been lost to "trade deals," and that's a generous accounting. The vast majority of manufacturing jobs have been lost to technological innovation.


Which is the same convulted logic they used to scam the coal miners. coal mining jobs are NOT going to make some grandiose comeback and it's not because of regulation. simply put technology has made that particular worker obsolete.
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Old 03-02-2018, 10:43 AM
 
Location: Somewhere in northern Alabama
16,841 posts, read 51,286,023 times
Reputation: 27653
I am one who thinks that there actually is a national security issue. A concept that is part of globalization is to make countries so interdependent that war is impossible. That is an unobtainable goal, IMO. When an industry that would be crucial to defense becomes so weak and the infrastructure and knowledgeable workers so diminished that it can't ramp up immediately in wartime, we are in a boatload of trouble. In war, supply lines are cut and we could be at war or sanctioned by China or other countries. Just because we have had a history of shared relations with Canada, that does not mean that it will always be the case.

Steel is 20th century though. What I am much more concerned about are electronics coming from Korea and China. I look at the way my phone works, the permissions that have to be granted everywhere, and the fact that it is an artificially cheap product made in China - by a company with close ties to the Chinese government - and I think "What a fantastic information gathering device, and brilliant electronic fifth column that has the potential for destroying communications with a simple hidden deactivation command, built in at the factory."
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Old 03-02-2018, 10:57 AM
 
2,240 posts, read 1,385,700 times
Reputation: 4894
Quote:
Originally Posted by harry chickpea View Post
I am one who thinks that there actually is a national security issue. A concept that is part of globalization is to make countries so interdependent that war is impossible. That is an unobtainable goal, IMO. When an industry that would be crucial to defense becomes so weak and the infrastructure and knowledgeable workers so diminished that it can't ramp up immediately in wartime, we are in a boatload of trouble. In war, supply lines are cut and we could be at war or sanctioned by China or other countries. Just because we have had a history of shared relations with Canada, that does not mean that it will always be the case.

Steel is 20th century though. What I am much more concerned about are electronics coming from Korea and China. I look at the way my phone works, the permissions that have to be granted everywhere, and the fact that it is an artificially cheap product made in China - by a company with close ties to the Chinese government - and I think "What a fantastic information gathering device, and brilliant electronic fifth column that has the potential for destroying communications with a simple hidden deactivation command, built in at the factory."
The relationship with Canada is one of the closest and strongest in the world. “May these gates never be closed”. China won’t be stopping us from getting Canadian steel....considering the U.s navy and the connected border.

Globalism didn’t make waging war on other powers impossible. That was the dream, but what really did it is the horror of Nuclear weapons.

If you think a total war between powers would be a race of production for things like steel....I’ve got news for you....
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Old 03-02-2018, 11:26 AM
 
Location: Northern NJ
7,405 posts, read 7,358,602 times
Reputation: 10609
Quote:
Originally Posted by harry chickpea View Post
I am one who thinks that there actually is a national security issue. A concept that is part of globalization is to make countries so interdependent that war is impossible. That is an unobtainable goal, IMO. When an industry that would be crucial to defense becomes so weak and the infrastructure and knowledgeable workers so diminished that it can't ramp up immediately in wartime, we are in a boatload of trouble. In war, supply lines are cut and we could be at war or sanctioned by China or other countries. Just because we have had a history of shared relations with Canada, that does not mean that it will always be the case.

Steel is 20th century though. What I am much more concerned about are electronics coming from Korea and China. I look at the way my phone works, the permissions that have to be granted everywhere, and the fact that it is an artificially cheap product made in China - by a company with close ties to the Chinese government - and I think "What a fantastic information gathering device, and brilliant electronic fifth column that has the potential for destroying communications with a simple hidden deactivation command, built in at the factory."

And we created the security issue ourselves by abandoning our core principle: liberty. Until that is fixed, there is nothing much worth securing.
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Old 03-02-2018, 11:39 AM
 
Location: California
601 posts, read 438,216 times
Reputation: 741
Quote:
Originally Posted by redguard57 View Post
Tariffs help developing, bourgeoning sectors. Not mature ones. It makes sense for India or Brazil to have some tariffs on manufacturing. It makes little sense for the U.S. or Western Europe to have them.

You only want tariffs for industries that are small and trying to establish themselves.

For most of us, it'll mean higher prices for cars. It won't result in more industrial jobs. At worst, only about 15% of manufacturing jobs have been lost to "trade deals," and that's a generous accounting. The vast majority of manufacturing jobs have been lost to technological innovation.
I'm not even conservative but lowering corporate taxes and adding some tariffs really is the way to bring jobs back. The blind love of "free market" principles without any oversight will turn us into 19th century England, and none of us want that.

Having to rely on international metal producers for imports puts us at huge risk in the event of war.

To some extent the lowering of corporate taxes may offset the costs of tariffs anyway.

Also automation hasn't really killed manufacturing. The people I know that still do that kind of work spend more time doing quality assurance and fixing broken robots. It's made the work more analytical and less back breaking and there are employment opportunities involved with the automation.
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Old 03-02-2018, 04:25 PM
 
4,202 posts, read 1,535,511 times
Reputation: 5259
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thatsright19 View Post
This Trump guy is a smoot! I can Hawley disagree with his great economic policies!
LOL... Trump is such an economic illiterate he thinks Smoot and Hawley is a brand of vacuum cleaner.
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Old 03-02-2018, 08:13 PM
 
1,025 posts, read 558,839 times
Reputation: 300
NJ Brazen_3133, annual trade deficits are always net detrimental their nation's GDP.
This is not an opinion but a fact based upon the most commonly used formula for determining GDP. All federal references to GDP assume the expenditure formula unless some other method of calculation is explicitly mentioned; that extremely rarely or never occurs.

Balance of trade is an explicit component of the expenditure formula for calculating GDP. Trade surpluses directly increase, and trade deficits directly decrease the calculated GDP. Within all other conventional GDP formulas where trade balances are not explicitly referred to, they are indirectly reflected and have the same effect upon the nation's GDP.
This is true for economist and statistician communities throughout the world.

I'm among the proponents of the trade policy described within Wikipedia's “Import Certificate” article. Similar to tariffs, all net expenses are passed on to the nation's purchasers of imported goods.

Unlike tariffs, it's not a source of net government tax revenue. Its rates are set and monitored by law to do no more than defray all of the government's net administration costs due to the policy. Any net costs beyond governments administrative expenses are due to markets' behaviors and serve as an indirect subsidy of the nation's exported goods at no increased cost to anyone.
Unlike tariffs, government doesn't determine differing rates for differing types of products, or nation's of origin or particular enterprises or industries; government doesn't choose winners or losers.

Import Certificate policy is a unilateral trade policy that's only of benefit for a nation that would otherwise suffer chronic annual trade deficits of goods. Many nations would benefit from adopting this unilateral trade policy, but the USA, (which has been experiencing the greatest and chronic annual trade deficits every year of the past half century), would be the greatest beneficiary if we adopted this policy.

Import Certificate policy significantly reduces, if not entirely eliminating the adopting nation's annual trade deficit of goods in a manner that increases their GDP and numbers of jobs more than otherwise.

Respectfully, Supposn

Last edited by Supposn; 03-02-2018 at 09:15 PM..
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Old 03-02-2018, 08:19 PM
 
Location: Middle of the ocean
27,448 posts, read 17,619,243 times
Reputation: 39933
Quote:
Originally Posted by njbiodude View Post
I'm not even conservative but lowering corporate taxes and adding some tariffs really is the way to bring jobs back. The blind love of "free market" principles without any oversight will turn us into 19th century England, and none of us want that.

Having to rely on international metal producers for imports puts us at huge risk in the event of war.

To some extent the lowering of corporate taxes may offset the costs of tariffs anyway.

Also automation hasn't really killed manufacturing. The people I know that still do that kind of work spend more time doing quality assurance and fixing broken robots. It's made the work more analytical and less back breaking and there are employment opportunities involved with the automation.

It could for the corporations, but not for the consumers. You know.... us.
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Old 03-02-2018, 09:08 PM
 
Location: Ft. Myers
15,569 posts, read 9,642,463 times
Reputation: 34362
It was really very good of the Republicans to give us that recent tax break. That money is going to come in handy to pay for the increased prices on everything from beer to cars.

The GOP giveth and the GOP taketh away !
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Old 03-03-2018, 03:11 AM
 
7,856 posts, read 6,660,208 times
Reputation: 1371
Over time this cost of the tariff will just blend in to the over prices steel and aluminum , and other countries will put higher tariffs on American steel and aluminum going to their countries in retaliation
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