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Old 03-05-2018, 11:31 AM
 
Location: la la land
27,181 posts, read 11,359,293 times
Reputation: 19285

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikala43 View Post
He is already starting to back peddle. This is just like having a toddler. One day he erupts in tantrums and demands, gets a good nap and snack, and becomes more reasonable (sometimes).

I wonder if after awhile, everyone (stock market, world leaders, etc.) will just start ignoring his tweets and odd off the cuff pronouncements?
I think that's already started, the DOW recovered today mostly because he and his "economic advisors" *cough cough* are now equivocating about this 'deal' and talking about exemptions and not imposing tariffs on Mexico and Canada "if" they will renegotiate NAFTA. Trump's policies are all based on what the last person in the West Wing told him was a good idea
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Old 03-05-2018, 12:37 PM
 
Location: Paranoid State
12,685 posts, read 9,432,561 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by njbiodude View Post
The blind love of "free market" principles without any oversight will turn us into 19th century England, and none of us want that.
"free market principles without oversight" is a straw man.

Quote:
Originally Posted by njbiodude View Post
To some extent the lowering of corporate taxes may offset the costs of tariffs anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikala43 View Post
It could for the corporations, but not for the consumers. You know.... us.
Corporations do not bear the burden of taxes. 100% of all corporate taxes flow through to a combination of customers in the form of higher prices, employees in the form of lower total compensation, and business owners in the form of lower profits. That is, 100% flows through to people... you know... us.

Thus, any reduction in corporate taxes flows through to those same groups. Zero Percent is borne by the corporation; 100% flows through to a combination of customers in the form of lower prices, employees in the form of higher total compensation, and business owners in the form of higher profits. That is, 100% flows through to people... you know... us.

Quite literally, there is no place else for it to go.
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Old 03-05-2018, 12:44 PM
 
Location: Paranoid State
12,685 posts, read 9,432,561 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charlygal View Post
More empty bluster. What percentage of Americans drive European cars? The big foreign carmakers in the U.S. are Japanese and Korean.
In my neighborhoods, almost all cars are Mercedes-Benz, Audi, BMW, Porsche, Lamborghini, Bentley, Maserati, Jaguar and Land Rover.
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Old 03-05-2018, 12:50 PM
 
Location: Paranoid State
12,685 posts, read 9,432,561 times
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Does anyone remember then-Democratic Presidential Candidate John Kerry's position on fair trade?

John Kerry on Free Trade

Quote:
Q: Should the US seek more free or liberalized trade agreements?
A: I support free trade, but I don’t support what the Bush administration calls free trade. I will order an immediate 120-day review of all trade agreements to ensure that our trading partners are living up to their labor and environment obligations and that trade agreements are enforceable and are balanced for America’s workers. I won’t sign any new trade agreements unless they contain strong labor and environmental standards.
John Kerry made a big deal of evaluating labor costs of trading partners, and if their labor costs were lower than our labor costs, to then implement an equalizing tariff so that US workers were not at a disadvantage.

OK, John Kerry was a while ago...

Does anyone remember Bernie Sanders on Free Trade?

http://ontheissues.org/2016/Bernie_S...Free_Trade.htm

SANDERS: I do not believe in unfettered free trade. I believe in fair trade which works for the middle class and working families, not just large multinational corporations. I was on the picket line in opposition to NAFTA. We heard people tell us how many jobs would be created. I didn't believe that for a second because I understood what the function of NAFTA, CAFTA, PNTR with China, and the TPP is, it's to say to American workers, hey, you are now competing against people in Vietnam who make 56 cents an hour minimum wage. This is an area where the secretary [candidate Hillary Clinton] and I have disagreements
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Old 03-06-2018, 03:48 PM
 
Location: Oregon, formerly Texas
5,242 posts, read 3,397,122 times
Reputation: 8783
Quote:
Originally Posted by SportyandMisty View Post
Does anyone remember then-Democratic Presidential Candidate John Kerry's position on fair trade?

John Kerry on Free Trade



John Kerry made a big deal of evaluating labor costs of trading partners, and if their labor costs were lower than our labor costs, to then implement an equalizing tariff so that US workers were not at a disadvantage.

OK, John Kerry was a while ago...

Does anyone remember Bernie Sanders on Free Trade?

Bernie Sanders on Free Trade

SANDERS: I do not believe in unfettered free trade. I believe in fair trade which works for the middle class and working families, not just large multinational corporations. I was on the picket line in opposition to NAFTA. We heard people tell us how many jobs would be created. I didn't believe that for a second because I understood what the function of NAFTA, CAFTA, PNTR with China, and the TPP is, it's to say to American workers, hey, you are now competing against people in Vietnam who make 56 cents an hour minimum wage. This is an area where the secretary [candidate Hillary Clinton] and I have disagreements
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/04/trum...nd-unions.html
Steel country Democrats are praising this. Politics sometimes creates some strange bedfellows.

My state (Oregon) is not so happy. Our economy is heavily reliant on agricultural exports and in general Mexico & China do a lot of business through our major port. Craft brewing is one of our major growth industries... an increase in materials cost will hurt them. Any retaliatory tariffs that may take place will hurt us.

The reality is complicated and the entire country can't win at the same time on this. Trump is nakedly brazen on only helping those who matter to him.

I get what Sanders is saying but the trade is proven to not be the big killer of industrial jobs in the U.S. Blanket tariffs on metals will backfire - there are a LOT more Americans with jobs dependent on trade than dependent on the domestic steel market. Many more.
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Old 03-07-2018, 08:18 AM
 
1,027 posts, read 559,669 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by censusdata View Post
Free trade is a net win for everyone. There is always a few loser but why handicap the other 95% of the economy because a few people chose to stay in dying industries? Trade wars will raise the cost to consumers, the cost of publicly funded projects, and cause the stock market to fall. The 1970s aren't coming back with their tons of steel and coal jobs and tariffs won't change that.
Censusdata, annual trade deficits are always detrimental to their nations GDP and thus also drag on their numbers of jobs.

Reduction of USA domestic market sales due to lesser domestic demand for any particular product is generally not economically problematic.
Net reduction of USA's domestic production, (GDP) due to lesser prices of foreign products consequentially reduce our nation's net numbers of jobs is both of socially and economically net detrimental to our nation.

Foreign producers prices reflect any of their lesser wage rates for comparable labor and any increase of quality due to increased labor per produced units. The purchasing power of USA' s median wage should not be hindered (and thus reducing our aggregate quality of life more than otherwise), to be more price competitive to foreign goods.

That's why I'm among the proponents of the trade policy described in Wikipedia's “Import Certificates” article.

Respectfully, Supposn
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Old 03-07-2018, 08:51 AM
 
5,600 posts, read 4,208,217 times
Reputation: 10562
Does anyone really want to see the return of the steel industry in the US? Not even counting the destruction due to mining, the industry is exceedingly dirty and an environmental disaster. In addition there are very few jobs involved and those are low paid and dangerous.


I think we should be happy for low cost steel and aluminum produced elsewhere.
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Old 03-07-2018, 11:55 AM
 
Location: Oregon, formerly Texas
5,242 posts, read 3,397,122 times
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President Bush tried something similar in an attempt to win Pennsylvania. He relented because the EU retailiated with tariffs on agricultural products including oranges.

There are more Florida orange jobs than there are Pennsylvania steel jobs. If Trump hangs on to Pennsylvania only to lose Florida, he is done.
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Old 03-07-2018, 11:56 AM
 
Location: la la land
27,181 posts, read 11,359,293 times
Reputation: 19285
Florida and Georgia won't be happy if this happens:

Europe could tax American orange juice, peanut butter in response to Trump tariff

BRUSSELS - The European Union has laid out how it will respond if President Trump goes through with tariffs on steel, and confirmed that bourbon, orange juice, peanut butter and cranberries would be among the first casualties in a feared “trade war.”
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Old 03-07-2018, 03:21 PM
 
10,706 posts, read 20,126,250 times
Reputation: 9859
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2sleepy View Post
Florida and Georgia won't be happy if this happens:

Europe could tax American orange juice, peanut butter in response to Trump tariff

BRUSSELS - The European Union has laid out how it will respond if President Trump goes through with tariffs on steel, and confirmed that bourbon, orange juice, peanut butter and cranberries would be among the first casualties in a feared “trade war.”
We have a $100b trade deficit with the EU. They will lose.
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