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Old 05-08-2018, 03:34 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ticking View Post
So a nation should just accept an act of war upon them? It would have to be a weak nation, but when you are talking about China, they are not weak. We haven't had war on our own territory, but when you are talking about doing battle with nations like China or Russia, then everything is on the table. Part of that wrath of God could easily be bombs on American soil too, if we are dropping bombs on them. Maybe we should just work a little harder and try to compete with other nations whose people are working hard.

If we fade like the Roman Empire, that is an acceptable outcome. The world has moved on from that era and we are all still here and doing fine.
An embargo is not dropping bombs. Google "embargo"
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Old 05-08-2018, 08:53 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsflyer View Post
An embargo is not dropping bombs. Google "embargo"
I get what an embargo is. I think it would be an act of war if the US attempted to prevent their ships from leaving their ports. I think they would consider it an act of war as well. An embargo would lead to bombs.

If we choose not buy Chinese goods that is a different story, we can make that choice obviously, but attempting an embargo as an effort to prevent them from selling their goods elsewhere is out of bounds.
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Old 05-08-2018, 06:58 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ticking View Post
I get what an embargo is. I think it would be an act of war if the US attempted to prevent their ships from leaving their ports. I think they would consider it an act of war as well. An embargo would lead to bombs.

If we choose not buy Chinese goods that is a different story, we can make that choice obviously, but attempting an embargo as an effort to prevent them from selling their goods elsewhere is out of bounds.
We need to defend our ally’s there and isolate them, if they act aggressive we can lay the smack down way better than them. One shot or one aggressive action and we should accept what bombs may fall and make sure we completely end them as a civilization so they never rise again.
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Old 05-08-2018, 09:52 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsflyer View Post
We need to defend our ally’s there and isolate them, if they act aggressive we can lay the smack down way better than them. One shot or one aggressive action and we should accept what bombs may fall and make sure we completely end them as a civilization so they never rise again.
If this attitude were to prevail, the cost would also be millions perhaps tens of millions of American lives, along with a partial destruction of the planet. A nation like China is not going to permit destruction of their nation without a massive response. While the US and China were destroying each other, Europe and other nations would have opportunity to rise while we take decades to recover and repair our power grid among other things. I think strong arm tactics would be both very unpopular and counter productive.
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Old 05-09-2018, 03:37 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ticking View Post
If this attitude were to prevail, the cost would also be millions perhaps tens of millions of American lives, along with a partial destruction of the planet. A nation like China is not going to permit destruction of their nation without a massive response. While the US and China were destroying each other, Europe and other nations would have opportunity to rise while we take decades to recover and repair our power grid among other things. I think strong arm tactics would be both very unpopular and counter productive.
I think at the very least in the near future the american people will demand all economic ties be cut with china and all real estate of chineese nationals in the USA seized. At a minimum.

Also I think you dramaticly over estimate Chinas nuclear delivery systems, even the word dramatic is an under statment. China is alot of bluster militarily, they might be a threat to their direct neighbors but launching ICBM's across the pacific is much different than launching to Japan a 100 miles away or Taiwan. Also if we dont have the competency to knock them down before they get here then perhaps we deserve to be suborinate and to fade away.

China could do damage but not the kind of damage you think it can, this sort of thinking is what leads a nation into weakness and subordination.

Diplomacy is good, but only when we are doing it because we want to not because we are cowering in fear, if we dont get the response we want from diplomacy then we need to be able to execute militarily and we need to be able to win, if we can no longer do that and we have to pander then why spend all this money on the military, maybe our time is over. A nation that cant flex military might and compel another hostile nation to sit down and shut up is no nation at all.

We should have hit china a long time ago before they had nukes as soon as the communist revolution, we should have hit them so hard that main land china was like modern day syria. We allowed China to happen and I suppose we get what we deserve, but the american people wont tolerate the economic fall out much longer.
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Old 05-09-2018, 07:18 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsflyer View Post
I think at the very least in the near future the american people will demand all economic ties be cut with china and all real estate of chineese nationals in the USA seized. At a minimum.
Near future, meaning when? 2020? 2030?.
I don't think either of these things is going to happen. The moment we confiscate individuals property, we lose our identity and are not trusted by any foreign national. Investment stops and we are much poorer.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsflyer View Post

Also I think you dramaticly over estimate Chinas nuclear delivery systems, even the word dramatic is an under statment. China is alot of bluster militarily, they might be a threat to their direct neighbors but launching ICBM's across the pacific is much different than launching to Japan a 100 miles away or Taiwan. Also if we dont have the competency to knock them down before they get here then perhaps we deserve to be suborinate and to fade away.
I think you are dramatically overestimating our ability to control a nuclear war with China. We do not deserve to fade away because we can't knock down their missiles. We should never put ourselves in that position to begin with China by enacting acts of war on them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsflyer View Post

Diplomacy is good, but only when we are doing it because we want to not because we are cowering in fear, if we dont get the response we want from diplomacy then we need to be able to execute militarily and we need to be able to win, if we can no longer do that and we have to pander then why spend all this money on the military, maybe our time is over. A nation that cant flex military might and compel another hostile nation to sit down and shut up is no nation at all.

.
If all nations had this attitude we would have war breaking out in all 200 or so country's.
Yes, our time may be over where we can make demands and expect them to all be carried out just how we want. I don't think that time existed to begin with. Diplomacy is give and take, it doesn't work when a nation is 100% taking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsflyer View Post

We should have hit china a long time ago before they had nukes as soon as the communist revolution, we should have hit them so hard that main land china was like modern day syria. We allowed China to happen and I suppose we get what we deserve, but the american people wont tolerate the economic fall out much longer.
You ideal world is requiring a lot of individuals of other nations to be dead, and the ones that remain subordinate to the USA. We do not deserve to wear such a crown, and certainly all those people don't deserve to be dead from our bombs.
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Old 05-09-2018, 02:55 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ticking View Post
Near future, meaning when? 2020? 2030?.
I don't think either of these things is going to happen. The moment we confiscate individuals property, we lose our identity and are not trusted by any foreign national. Investment stops and we are much poorer.



I think you are dramatically overestimating our ability to control a nuclear war with China. We do not deserve to fade away because we can't knock down their missiles. We should never put ourselves in that position to begin with China by enacting acts of war on them.



If all nations had this attitude we would have war breaking out in all 200 or so country's.
Yes, our time may be over where we can make demands and expect them to all be carried out just how we want. I don't think that time existed to begin with. Diplomacy is give and take, it doesn't work when a nation is 100% taking.



You ideal world is requiring a lot of individuals of other nations to be dead, and the ones that remain subordinate to the USA. We do not deserve to wear such a crown, and certainly all those people don't deserve to be dead from our bombs.
That is how Rome wore such a crown for, what, almost 2000 years. As soon as you start pandering its the beginning of the end.

Just look at how Swiss banking is not what it used to be as soon as they started pandering to the USA, now US citizens cant even get swiss bank accounts and even if you could they are not numbered accounts.

As I said before if we become like a 3rd world country because we strip forign nationals of real estate in order for US citizens to have more prosperity then we deserve to fail. If we cant have a self contained market and thrive then we dont deserve what we have (short of certian spices that dont grow here, etc).

You sound like you want the USA to be subordinate and US citizens to have to deal with forign nationals having rights over them, thats a very serious problem.

So they dont deserve to be bombed but we deserve to live in poverty because we are trying to compete against pseudo slave labor and IP theft? I say they do deserve to be bombed and the company CEO's that set up factories over there deserve to be tried for treason.
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Old 05-09-2018, 03:57 PM
 
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Most midwest unemployed are slaves too — slaves of capitalists system. In fact, they are not any better off than those factory workers in China. After years of working, they became old and can not even afford to pay rent. Under communism in China, workers get entitlements. High wage-high cost is the same as low wage-low cost.

This is what Karl Marx called “proletariat”, or the class of industrial labors who are left with nothing after years of exploitations.

No, it’s not China causing it, it’s capitalist system.
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Old 05-09-2018, 04:13 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6oo9 View Post
Most midwest unemployed are slaves too — slaves of capitalists system. In fact, they are not any better off than those factory workers in China. After years of working, they became old and can not even afford to pay rent. Under communism in China, workers get entitlements. High wage-high cost is the same as low wage-low cost.

This is what Karl Marx called “proletariat”, or the class of industrial labors who are left with nothing after years of exploitations.

No, it’s not China causing it, it’s capitalist system.
Capitalism works well so long as no one party is in a negitive leverage situation. When workers are in high demand and can command high wages compared to COL and companies can still turn a profit. The problem is when too much surplus labor value is hoarded due to workers having negitive leverage.

This is why anti trust laws were developed, so that when companies gained too much market leverage (due to either strategic or structural barriers to entry) then the govt could bust them up so that there were now many companies with which individuals could sell their labor/skills/etc.

When only a hand full of companies in a given region hold all the cards they dictage the wages, who gets hired and even what the state politics are because they control the entire state economy and the people live in fear of their jobs and livelyhood on a daily basis.

Anti trust has not been really enforced since standard oil. If the USA were to truely enforce anti trust today the kicking and screaming of the elites would be like the worst toddler temper tantrum you have ever seen. They would start threating to shut down, go over seas and on and on.
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Old 05-10-2018, 07:41 AM
 
678 posts, read 486,317 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsflyer View Post
That is how Rome wore such a crown for, what, almost 2000 years. As soon as you start pandering its the beginning of the end.
The end of what? The world has moved on just fine from an era where Rome was a major power. Why is that important?


Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsflyer View Post

As I said before if we become like a 3rd world country because we strip forign nationals of real estate in order for US citizens to have more prosperity then we deserve to fail. If we cant have a self contained market and thrive then we dont deserve what we have (short of certian spices that dont grow here, etc).

.
So you are advocating simply confiscating people's property (Stealing it)because you want to give it back to people that didn't earn the money to build it. I don't agree with taking that action. I believe that is morally wrong, and it would also harm us in the long run. We would lose all foreign investment which is something that has help drive our economy. We wouldn't be a responsible trustworthy nation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsflyer View Post

You sound like you want the USA to be subordinate and US citizens to have to deal with forign nationals having rights over them, thats a very serious problem.

.
What is/was your basis for reaching such an odd conclusion? Foreign nationals should not have rights superseding a native's rights.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsflyer View Post

So they dont deserve to be bombed but we deserve to live in poverty because we are trying to compete against pseudo slave labor and IP theft? I say they do deserve to be bombed and the company CEO's that set up factories over there deserve to be tried for treason.
I'd say that is very harsh. We are living well here overall. Shelter, food, medical care are all pretty good overall. Most lower income households have luxury items like flat screen TV's, cell phones, etc etc. True poverty is rampant in many nations. Here in the states many people in the lower rungs of society will eventually move up the ranks somewhat. I'm not seeing just cause for bombing nations because they are out competing us, while we choose to flop around and complain. Nobody promised it would be easy peasy to compete, and be one of the wealthiest societies. We are not entitled to be one of the top nations if we are unwilling to work hard to maintain.
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