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Old 06-30-2018, 08:03 PM
 
Location: Paranoid State
12,878 posts, read 9,564,353 times
Reputation: 15272

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Originally Posted by amokk View Post
Thank you for posting the non paywall link!
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Old 06-30-2018, 08:07 PM
 
Location: Paranoid State
12,878 posts, read 9,564,353 times
Reputation: 15272
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeerGeek40 View Post
Sorry - nobody needs 2 yachts, I don't care how hard your dad worked.
I understand your point -- but note that Econ 101 teaches us there is no such thing as a need, period. People do not have "needs"; people have "wants & desires." Economics is the study of the allocation of scarce resources in a world of unlimited wants and desires.

Moreover, in the case of someone who starts with little and generates wealth sufficient to own two yachts, that wealth is generally the result of tremendous value-add to society: creating and operating businesses that provide goods and services for sale to real customers who eagerly exchange their hard-earned money for a product that makes them better off, and employing large numbers of people in the process.

I'm reminded of an anecdote from Michael Bloomberg long before he became a politician. He talked about having a "customer appreciation day" where he had every employee call a customer at random and thank them for their business.

It so happened by random chance that a low-level employee at Bloomberg who works in Shipping & Receiving drew the name of an Executive Vice President at Chase. "This is Jorge Martinez calling from Bloomberg" he announced, calling this customer. It didn't matter that the executive at Chase didn't know anyone named "Jorge Martinez" nor did it matter that Jorge Martinez didn't know anyone at Chase. The executive secretary knows that when Bloomberg calls, you try to put them through. The Chase executive took the call.

"My name is Jorge Gonzalez at Bloomberg. Today is our Customer Appreciation Day. All day today, Bloomberg employees are calling our customers to Thank Them for Their Business. By virtue of you being a customer of Bloomberg, I want you to know that I have a job, that I support my family, and that my son is the first person in my family ever to go to college. So, Thank You for your business."

Jorge continued, "Look, Mr. XXX, I don't really know anything about all this high finance stuff or banks or anything, so I can't help you with that stuff. I'm in shipping & receiving. But if you ever need to know about shipping, or if you ever need tape or boxes or anything, you can call me anytime of the day or night & here's my cell phone number."

Michael Bloomberg heard about this call from the executive at Chase who called him up to tell him it was a wonderful call.

The issue isn't that Michael Bloomberg is a billionaire and can buy more yachts than anyone wants (let alone "needs"). The issue is that Michael Bloomberg became a billionaire by providing goods and services that make their customers better off, and in the process Jorge Martinez and others have jobs, put food on the table, put a roof over their head, have self-respect, and Jorge's son can go to college.

Last edited by SportyandMisty; 06-30-2018 at 08:29 PM..
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Old 06-30-2018, 08:09 PM
 
60 posts, read 27,561 times
Reputation: 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeerGeek40 View Post
Sorry - nobody needs 2 yachts, I don't care how hard your dad worked.

This article was pretty good and yes it raises some good points -- middle class is barely better off than the welfare collectors who are becoming an increasing percentage of society.
And you don't need to buy a house or own a car or own a tv or have any number of other consumerist items.
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Old 06-30-2018, 08:15 PM
 
60 posts, read 27,561 times
Reputation: 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by SportyandMisty View Post
I understand your point -- but note that Econ 101 teaches us there is no such thing as a need, period. People do not have "needs"; people have "wants & desires." Economics is the study of the allocation of scarce resources in a world of unlimited wants and desires.
This.
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Old 06-30-2018, 08:25 PM
 
5 posts, read 2,000 times
Reputation: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeerGeek40 View Post
Sorry - nobody needs 2 yachts, I don't care how hard your dad worked.

This article was pretty good and yes it raises some good points -- middle class is barely better off than the welfare collectors who are becoming an increasing percentage of society.
Nobody needs internet access either. What's your point?
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Old 06-30-2018, 08:46 PM
 
Location: North Carolina
2,374 posts, read 1,665,614 times
Reputation: 4693
Quote:
Originally Posted by SportyandMisty View Post
Here's an interesting piece in the WSJ:

How Income Equality Helped Trump
Working Americans sense that taxes and transfers now leave them little better off than those who work less.



The article begins (just a teaser so I don't violate C-D copyright rules):



The above bolded item is not a typo. Rising income equality has been causing a backlash fueled by the explosion of social-welfare spending and the economic coupled with the wage stagnation during the Obama era.

Hardworking middle-income and lower-middle-income families apparently recognized that their efforts left them little better off than the growing number of recipients of government transfers. The perceived injustice of this equality helped drive the political shift among blue-collar workers.

It's a good piece & worth a read.
Wage stagnation began to some degree in the 1980's but really became apparent after 2000, including the two terms of Pres. GW Bush, so this isn't isolated to one presidency. In fact if you look at census data from 2000-2010 (during most of which GW Bush was in office), it is not uncommon in community after community to see 2010 real wages (unadjusted for inflation) be almost flat when compared against 2000. And of course, cost of living didn't stay flat in this decade.
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Old 06-30-2018, 09:26 PM
 
4,456 posts, read 5,332,662 times
Reputation: 4521
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeerGeek40 View Post
Sorry - nobody needs 2 yachts, I don't care how hard your dad worked.

This article was pretty good and yes it raises some good points -- middle class is barely better off than the welfare collectors who are becoming an increasing percentage of society.
Well, yeah actually, ya do. But your life is so far away from that you can’t understand anyone else’s reality. One yacht is up in the Pacific Northwest, one is in Cabo, those are 2,000 miles apart. He vacations to Cabo where he has a house so how exactly would you have one yacht if you wanted to use them in each place? You wouldn’t. Not to mention if you have the money what does it matter?! My dad has massive charitable contributions setup not only as he lives but when he’s gone. The company will continue and that company will donate more in one year to charity each year he’s dead than you will in your entire life. So again, what business is it what other people do with their money? Especially when those people have provided great incomes to thousands of people, made dozens of people millions of dollars, and started charities, contributed to other charities, educational foundations, and made the world a better place?

For all of the resentment of some poor people, it’s amazing they never stop to think those “evil greedy rich people” have made a million times the contribution to this world than a thousand whiny losers who refuse to work hard and instead would prefer to complain about how “it’s not fair.” Life isn’t fair, but if you sit around and complain rather than work hard you’ll never get anywhere.
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Old 06-30-2018, 09:31 PM
 
Location: southern california
55,237 posts, read 72,637,927 times
Reputation: 47469
Work builds character and makes you resilient and strong
It strengthens intuition, problem solving and tolerance to stress
This is babbling nonsense to the non work culture
For them only fools work
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Old 06-30-2018, 10:24 PM
 
Location: Raleigh NC
7,902 posts, read 6,218,724 times
Reputation: 7009
Quote:
Originally Posted by rational1 View Post
I do believe that the Trump vote was to a large degree motivated by resentment against those perceived as less deserving. ALTHOUGH it may not be objectively true that the "undeserving" get much from government aid. Resentment does not need to be justified by facts.

It IS quite ironic that there seems to be little resentment for the truly wealthy, who have accumulated an increasingly large percentage of the national wealth in recent years. The numbers do clearly and unambiguously show this.

But Trump voters don't know any rich people. They resent the brown person in the grocery store buying a steak because they never see the rich person buying a yacht.
nope.

So you'd have us believe that the (sum of Hilary voters) - (3 million American voters) = ignorant, stupid racists.
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Old 06-30-2018, 10:38 PM
 
Location: Raleigh NC
7,902 posts, read 6,218,724 times
Reputation: 7009
Quote:
Originally Posted by SportyandMisty View Post
I understand your point -- but note that Econ 101 teaches us there is no such thing as a need, period. People do not have "needs"; people have "wants & desires." Economics is the study of the allocation of scarce resources in a world of unlimited wants and desires.

Moreover, in the case of someone who starts with little and generates wealth sufficient to own two yachts, that wealth is generally the result of tremendous value-add to society: creating and operating businesses that provide goods and services for sale to real customers who eagerly exchange their hard-earned money for a product that makes them better off, and employing large numbers of people in the process.

I'm reminded of an anecdote from Michael Bloomberg long before he became a politician. He talked about having a "customer appreciation day" where he had every employee call a customer at random and thank them for their business.

It so happened by random chance that a low-level employee at Bloomberg who works in Shipping & Receiving drew the name of an Executive Vice President at Chase. "This is Jorge Martinez calling from Bloomberg" he announced, calling this customer. It didn't matter that the executive at Chase didn't know anyone named "Jorge Martinez" nor did it matter that Jorge Martinez didn't know anyone at Chase. The executive secretary knows that when Bloomberg calls, you try to put them through. The Chase executive took the call.

"My name is Jorge Gonzalez at Bloomberg. Today is our Customer Appreciation Day. All day today, Bloomberg employees are calling our customers to Thank Them for Their Business. By virtue of you being a customer of Bloomberg, I want you to know that I have a job, that I support my family, and that my son is the first person in my family ever to go to college. So, Thank You for your business."

Jorge continued, "Look, Mr. XXX, I don't really know anything about all this high finance stuff or banks or anything, so I can't help you with that stuff. I'm in shipping & receiving. But if you ever need to know about shipping, or if you ever need tape or boxes or anything, you can call me anytime of the day or night & here's my cell phone number."

Michael Bloomberg heard about this call from the executive at Chase who called him up to tell him it was a wonderful call.

The issue isn't that Michael Bloomberg is a billionaire and can buy more yachts than anyone wants (let alone "needs"). The issue is that Michael Bloomberg became a billionaire by providing goods and services that make their customers better off, and in the process Jorge Martinez and others have jobs, put food on the table, put a roof over their head, have self-respect, and Jorge's son can go to college.
assuming it's true - and even if it's fictionalized, this is the way it should work - a perfect example of how the US is supposed to operate.
completely counter to the "you don't need it, so I should get it" argument.
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