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Old 07-05-2018, 06:12 PM
 
2,360 posts, read 1,912,961 times
Reputation: 2118

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Quote:
Originally Posted by lieqiang View Post
Actually I'd love to hear an example of a construction zone that has been going on for decades that didn't go anywhere.
Between Dal and Temple same road construction for 10 years!

On I 40 between Forrest city and memphis bridge.. 20 years least!

texarkana road both sides I 30 for past 10 years.

None of these are done now, and doesnt seem like it will be done any time soon.
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Old 07-05-2018, 09:08 PM
 
319 posts, read 664,725 times
Reputation: 400
As a local engineer and former State engineer, I'll list the top 3 things that cause massive delays and high costs.

1) NEPA process: All federal projects and some State projects must follow the NEPA process. The process adds 1-2 years of design and bureaucracy on a project. NEPA compliance probably cost 10% of a completed construction project. Once you add in 4f (common use land recreation) and 6f (recreational waters) processes, add 6 months to a year on top of the 1-2 year process.

2) Other laws and regulations: Laws like Davis-Bacon and eminent domain (court) costs add millions to a project. The last residents to hold out get the biggest checks. Army core of Engineers often claim navigable waterways and add significant cost and time to projects due to access and preservation, plus any wetlands created by previous projects (roadway ditches/ponds/pipe outfalls) will require NEPA process.
There are countless more FHWA/State/Local regulation since every entity have a huge standards manual to follow. There is already an AASHTO green book for standards, yet everybody needs to be special and add 50% more standards on top. It's always more expensive and less reliable when you "over engineer".

3) Monopolies and duopolies: Vast majority of the time, projects are bid by a half dozen prime contractors, but there are often few sub contractor choices. So the cost remains high even if there are half dozen bidders due to steady costs of the subs. Then some places only have 1~3 contractors that does concrete and asphalt. Records have shown asphalt unit prices compared to only 1 bidder in the area will drop 40% if there is a 2nd bidder and 50% with 3 bidders. Incompetent contractors do get debarred if they screw up pretty badly. 95% of the time, the spineless government entity just pays contractors to fix the problems twice. A co-worker recently told me about a project. The project needed additional storm water pipe and they added 8-10 feet of pipe plus a manhole, the contractor filed a claim for 360k using time and materials records. It was recommended to paid them unit price totaling $3000. The upper management "settled" for 180k. I've seen a project where the contractor filed a claim for 80k because they had to get additional cut/fill sites. How the contractor dispose of materials is included in the bid price and there should be no additional payment. Management settled for 35k. I have never seen upper management stand firm and not pay a claim. Contractors play this claim-game, especially when they have enough political contributions to influence governor, secretary, upper manager levels.

Bonus 4) Some project delays and added costs are due to bureaucracy and politics. Politicians do ask/demand changes and most of the time they get what they want or some kind of comparable workaround. Internal bureaucracy is both poor decision making and people that won't make decisions and take responsibility. This usually cost a lot of time. Politicians demands can cost money but they're pretty small scale on the state/local level. This section really adds more headaches than time or money because politicians want to have successful projects.
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Old 07-06-2018, 09:43 AM
 
Location: Paranoid State
13,044 posts, read 13,857,850 times
Reputation: 15839
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocko20 View Post
As great as America is in some aspects, it's terribly inefficient and downright incompetent when it comes to anything infrastructure related.
Part of my frustration is that it didn't used to be this way. Infrastructure projects such as the Hoover Dam, the Golden Gate Bridge, etc are examples.
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Old 07-06-2018, 10:03 AM
 
Location: California
1,424 posts, read 1,637,689 times
Reputation: 3144
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merkin View Post
As a local engineer and former State engineer, I'll list the top 3 things that cause massive delays and high costs.

1) NEPA process: All federal projects and some State projects must follow the NEPA process. The process adds 1-2 years of design and bureaucracy on a project. NEPA compliance probably cost 10% of a completed construction project. Once you add in 4f (common use land recreation) and 6f (recreational waters) processes, add 6 months to a year on top of the 1-2 year process.

2) Other laws and regulations: Laws like Davis-Bacon and eminent domain (court) costs add millions to a project. The last residents to hold out get the biggest checks. Army core of Engineers often claim navigable waterways and add significant cost and time to projects due to access and preservation, plus any wetlands created by previous projects (roadway ditches/ponds/pipe outfalls) will require NEPA process.
There are countless more FHWA/State/Local regulation since every entity have a huge standards manual to follow. There is already an AASHTO green book for standards, yet everybody needs to be special and add 50% more standards on top. It's always more expensive and less reliable when you "over engineer".

3) Monopolies and duopolies: Vast majority of the time, projects are bid by a half dozen prime contractors, but there are often few sub contractor choices. So the cost remains high even if there are half dozen bidders due to steady costs of the subs. Then some places only have 1~3 contractors that does concrete and asphalt. Records have shown asphalt unit prices compared to only 1 bidder in the area will drop 40% if there is a 2nd bidder and 50% with 3 bidders. Incompetent contractors do get debarred if they screw up pretty badly. 95% of the time, the spineless government entity just pays contractors to fix the problems twice. A co-worker recently told me about a project. The project needed additional storm water pipe and they added 8-10 feet of pipe plus a manhole, the contractor filed a claim for 360k using time and materials records. It was recommended to paid them unit price totaling $3000. The upper management "settled" for 180k. I've seen a project where the contractor filed a claim for 80k because they had to get additional cut/fill sites. How the contractor dispose of materials is included in the bid price and there should be no additional payment. Management settled for 35k. I have never seen upper management stand firm and not pay a claim. Contractors play this claim-game, especially when they have enough political contributions to influence governor, secretary, upper manager levels.

Bonus 4) Some project delays and added costs are due to bureaucracy and politics. Politicians do ask/demand changes and most of the time they get what they want or some kind of comparable workaround. Internal bureaucracy is both poor decision making and people that won't make decisions and take responsibility. This usually cost a lot of time. Politicians demands can cost money but they're pretty small scale on the state/local level. This section really adds more headaches than time or money because politicians want to have successful projects.
Very helpful. thanks a lot for taking the time to post it
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Old 07-06-2018, 01:08 PM
 
1,248 posts, read 4,056,260 times
Reputation: 884
Quote:
Originally Posted by sean1the1 View Post
Imagine if we took that $1.5 trillion in tax cuts, and invested that in infrastructure...
We can still do that. We are seeing record tax receipts due to lower tax rates. The tax cuts are more than paying for themself
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Old 07-06-2018, 02:33 PM
 
Location: California
1,424 posts, read 1,637,689 times
Reputation: 3144
Quote:
Originally Posted by NickL28 View Post
We can still do that. We are seeing record tax receipts due to lower tax rates. The tax cuts are more than paying for themself
LOL. Then why is the deficit projected to grow?
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Old 07-06-2018, 03:12 PM
 
Location: Ohio
24,621 posts, read 19,150,494 times
Reputation: 21738
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyinCali View Post
It is just nuts how we can't figure this out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sean1the1 View Post
Imagine if we took that $1.5 trillion in tax cuts, and invested that in infrastructure...

We have figured it out.


On the 2017 report, it was $3.1 TRILLION for roads and bridges, and last tally was $3.7 TRILLION to modernize the electrical grid.


$1.5 TRILLION wouldn't hurt, but it's only 22% of what is needed to get the job done.
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Old 07-06-2018, 05:16 PM
 
2,132 posts, read 2,223,636 times
Reputation: 3924
Here's a long but interesting report on the Gateway project (the new tunnel between NJ and NYC) and its status with the current administration.
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Old 07-06-2018, 05:32 PM
 
2,132 posts, read 2,223,636 times
Reputation: 3924
Quote:
Originally Posted by SportyandMisty View Post
Part of my frustration is that it didn't used to be this way. Infrastructure projects such as the Hoover Dam, the Golden Gate Bridge, etc are examples.
When I drive cross-country, I'm always struck by how much public construction took place in the 1950s and '60s. There was the interstate highway system with the associated rest stops and toll plazas, as well as schools and hospitals, all in the same architectural style (long, low brick rectangles). Amazing that they were able to get so much done, and sad that we're not willing to maintain it.
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Old 07-06-2018, 10:23 PM
 
4,011 posts, read 4,247,154 times
Reputation: 3118
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kthnry View Post
sad that we're not willing to maintain it.
This surprises you(?)

Of course americans aren’t willing to maintain it- that would mean having to spend money, and spend it on things that benefit everyone(!)

As a whole, we tend to like things cheap and fast. Sad.
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