U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Economics
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
 
Old 08-09-2018, 06:41 AM
 
5,063 posts, read 3,339,629 times
Reputation: 4881

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supposn View Post
LordSquidworth, despite what I consider an unfortunate name choice, the purpose of the Balanced Trade Restoration Act of 2006 introduced to the U.S. Senate, was not balancing of trade.
USA's adoption of the improved Import Certificate proposal would significantly reduce, (if not entirely eliminate USA's chronic annual trade deficits of goods while increasing our GDP and numbers of jobs more than otherwise.

Enacting laws and regulations that induce entrepreneurs and their enterprises choosing what they consider to be to their best advantage, to also be to our nation's best economic advantage, is the duty of our federal government.
You lack an understanding of business and trade that to teach you fully would require full lessons, of which I'm not being paid for and therefore have no incentive to type out via my mobile.

Refer to my previous post if you wish to fix the deficit. Those are your only real options outside of lala land.
Quick reply to this message

 
Old 08-09-2018, 06:43 AM
 
Location: Northern Michigan
870 posts, read 414,477 times
Reputation: 3498
Yea, and he just happened to comment about a company that is in a bind because it needs lower cost flat panel displays, and he thinks it's possible for tariffs to allow an American company to enter the market to make them. Haha!!

It will NEVER, NEVER happen in a million years. I have dealt with that industry, and it is not pretty. I can't imagine any American company with an extra billion in the bank (just for FAB setup!) that wants to take a chance competing against giants in the Asian industry. The basis for this whole thread is completely bonkers.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-09-2018, 07:25 AM
 
Location: Upstate
5,495 posts, read 6,224,054 times
Reputation: 3822
Quote:
Originally Posted by davebarnes View Post
South Carolina.
No sympathy.
They voted for Trump.
Actually SC economy is humming along pretty well right now. Thousands of new jobs created. Lowest unemployment in at least a dozen years, maybe more.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-09-2018, 07:50 AM
 
2,271 posts, read 1,223,779 times
Reputation: 4512
Sigh. I love when people with no understanding of economics try to explain concepts relating to economic policy or theory.


Let's start with the basics... Trump is a moron. He's a moron who has a very rudimentary understanding of economics and trade. However... he's also right about a trade war with China. Ultimately (key word ultimately, after hurting our own economy in the interim) the US would eventually be on better footing against China.


The only thing Trump knows is that we import a whole lot more from China than they import from us. Even a child can probably figure that much out. In that regard, he's right. The Chinese don't have the ability to match us on tariffs because there is a trade imbalance in their favor. Ultimately, we can win a tariff war with China, because they will run out of things to match us on.


Unfortunately however, he didn't bother to think about the consequences this will have to Americans and American companies. Any supply chain that utilizes parts or components from China will take a financial hit, just like with Element. It's going to result in layoffs, missed profits, and eventually lead to higher unemployment which will affect our GDP, less taxable revenue, etc. The economy will be retracting if we continue with this.


Things made from China will now cost more, which in turn will lead American consumers to buy less stuff from China, and that is how our trade imbalance will start to equalize. That's all Trump is thinking about. He's ignoring how many industries are going to feel the pinch as their supply chains are hit by these tariffs, he's ignoring how many jobs will be lost here, and he's ignoring how much worse off the American consumer will be because now we're all going to be paying higher prices on a lot of things.


The Chinese economy will be hurt a bit because we'll be buying less stuff from them, but it isn't going to matter, the rest of the world will pick up the slack because much of the things that come from China are only made in China now because they can do it cheaper than anyone else. They're not going to be buying more from the US because our own manufacturing prices are far more expensive than what China's are. So in the end, we end up buying less stuff from China, millions of us have to pay more for a large variety of goods, thousands perhaps millions may lose their jobs, and China just starts selling more of those goods to other countries instead of us.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-09-2018, 08:24 AM
 
372 posts, read 78,066 times
Reputation: 826
My question would be why were those countries ever allowed to levy huge tariffs on OUR products, LONG before this administration. 12% on our autos in the Germany while ours was 2 1/2%


25,000 manufacturing plants moved to Asia before Trump took office. Now, suddenly every new move will be blamed on tariffs.



The real reason is that the country is wholly subservient to Wall Street. In tiems of reduced demand for consumer goods, the only way to maintain stock prices is to A. Lay off employees B. Reduce quality C. Move overseas. Since everyone's retirement is tied to stock prices we are all unwillingly complicit in ****ing over American workers. But, the biggest beneficiaries are the mega rich who have the most invested. We, endlessly hear about the income gap, well this is why. But don't worry, the friends of Goldman Sachs will be willing to pay a bit higher in taxes to keep the dispossessed off the streets - a la India. What the **** do they care. They didn't EARN their money - they gained it by manipulation and trading. The more desperate people become, the more they are likely to vote for those offering bread and circus.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-09-2018, 11:01 AM
 
1,037 posts, read 562,608 times
Reputation: 300
Katana49, I think I had previously posted something similar to this within this group, but I can't find it.

I did not vote for a Democrat or a Republican 2016 presidential candidate or for their electoral college supporters. I indicated my rejection by voting for less than electable 3d party candidate, to demonstrate my opposition to the declared policies of both major parties and their candidates.

I am not among those that squandered their votes in favor of candidates for which they had no confidence. I was particularly opposed to Donald Trump. Although I certainly wish our president well, President Trump's administration has not earned my confidence.

I'm among the proponent of the improved policy described by Wikipedia's “Import Certificates” article. It is superior to free trade or tariff policy. It would very significantly reduce, if not entirely eliminate USA's chronic annual trade deficits in a manner that would increase USA's domestic production and numbers of jobs more than otherwise.

We suppose Trump's tariffs on aluminum and steel will not do so, but the tariffs limitations would rather reduce our net production and numbers of jobs more than otherwise. If USA taxes imported aluminum and steel, it's preferable that we tax all USA imports, from all nations to the extents their shipments to us contain aluminum or steel.

It's not logical to “protect” USA steel mills but leave their USA customers at disadvantage to imports using cheaper foreign steel, and USA's trade laws should not be judging other nation's wage scales.
When USA customers for USA steel are crowded out of the markets, where's the market for USA steel produced by higher earning USA labor? Additionally, because tariffs, unlike Import Certificates would only be applicable to steel and aluminum, those USA products will continue to be crowded out by any goods or service products that could serve as an alternative to products made with steel or aluminum.

But if the Trump administration can succeed to reduce USA's chronic annual trade deficits of goods, and increase our domestic production and numbers of jobs more than otherwise, regardless of all my other objections to the Trump administration, It's highly likely that I'd vote in favor of re-electing president Donald Trump.

Refer to Wikipedia's “Import Certificates” article.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-09-2018, 11:10 AM
 
5,063 posts, read 3,339,629 times
Reputation: 4881
Quote:
Originally Posted by IWLC View Post
My question would be why were those countries ever allowed to levy huge tariffs on OUR products, LONG before this administration. 12% on our autos in the Germany while ours was 2 1/2%


25,000 manufacturing plants moved to Asia before Trump took office. Now, suddenly every new move will be blamed on tariffs.



The real reason is that the country is wholly subservient to Wall Street. In tiems of reduced demand for consumer goods, the only way to maintain stock prices is to A. Lay off employees B. Reduce quality C. Move overseas. Since everyone's retirement is tied to stock prices we are all unwillingly complicit in ****ing over American workers. But, the biggest beneficiaries are the mega rich who have the most invested. We, endlessly hear about the income gap, well this is why. But don't worry, the friends of Goldman Sachs will be willing to pay a bit higher in taxes to keep the dispossessed off the streets - a la India. What the **** do they care. They didn't EARN their money - they gained it by manipulation and trading. The more desperate people become, the more they are likely to vote for those offering bread and circus.
It's not subservient to Wall Street. Many workers like to think capital should be subservient to them and make sure they have good jobs. It's capitals job to protect itself.

I see it as the world changes American labor drags its feet getting with the new economy. The baseline skill level goes up, but people learning those skills drags. Until those skill sets are there, modern capital will continue to go where it can for profits.

You have to make yourself (labor) valuable to capital. It's no longer just get a job and capital will make you valuable.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-09-2018, 03:49 PM
 
17,324 posts, read 14,859,212 times
Reputation: 32940
Quote:
Originally Posted by Supposn View Post
Katana49, I think I had previously posted something similar to this within this group, but I can't find it.

I did not vote for a Democrat or a Republican 2016 presidential candidate or for their electoral college supporters. I indicated my rejection by voting for less than electable 3d party candidate, to demonstrate my opposition to the declared policies of both major parties and their candidates.

I am not among those that squandered their votes in favor of candidates for which they had no confidence. I was particularly opposed to Donald Trump. Although I certainly wish our president well, President Trump's administration has not earned my confidence.

I'm among the proponent of the improved policy described by Wikipedia's “Import Certificates” article. It is superior to free trade or tariff policy. It would very significantly reduce, if not entirely eliminate USA's chronic annual trade deficits in a manner that would increase USA's domestic production and numbers of jobs more than otherwise.

We suppose Trump's tariffs on aluminum and steel will not do so, but the tariffs limitations would rather reduce our net production and numbers of jobs more than otherwise. If USA taxes imported aluminum and steel, it's preferable that we tax all USA imports, from all nations to the extents their shipments to us contain aluminum or steel.

It's not logical to “protect” USA steel mills but leave their USA customers at disadvantage to imports using cheaper foreign steel, and USA's trade laws should not be judging other nation's wage scales.
When USA customers for USA steel are crowded out of the markets, where's the market for USA steel produced by higher earning USA labor? Additionally, because tariffs, unlike Import Certificates would only be applicable to steel and aluminum, those USA products will continue to be crowded out by any goods or service products that could serve as an alternative to products made with steel or aluminum.

But if the Trump administration can succeed to reduce USA's chronic annual trade deficits of goods, and increase our domestic production and numbers of jobs more than otherwise, regardless of all my other objections to the Trump administration, It's highly likely that I'd vote in favor of re-electing president Donald Trump.

Refer to Wikipedia's “Import Certificates” article.

You have to be careful though. If you make everything we buy using higher paid workers, the demand will decrease. Don't forget we are all party to what has happened. When Walmarts opened and other stores began stocking cheap Chinese goods in favor of U.S. made, it was because people were rejecting the higher priced items in favor of those cheaper goods. We scooped it up as fast as they could spoon it to us.


There is an argument to be made that cheap goods boosts the economy as well. Look at landscaping. Back in the 60's and 70's, landscapers were for rich people, they were expensive. So you only needed a few landscaping companies to cover a large area. When cheaper labor and more efficient machines came to be, prices dropped, making it a common thing to have a landscaper and mowing services. That allowed many small American-owned landscaping companies to open and thrive. If tomorrow someone comes along and says all landscaping employees must make $15 an hour and have benefits, 90% of those companies would go under because the cost would rise so much no one but the wealthy would use them.


I think it's the same with goods. I for one am willing to pay more for certain things. I shop small business for instance, like the family-owned hardware store that's been in my town since the 50's, even though I know what I buy would be cheaper at Home Depot. Most do not care though, they only care about low cost. And I admit to buying more than my share of cheap Chinese goods, I'm not some role model. When people tried to protest Walmarts coming to their towns because they knew small business would suffer, most told them to shut up and let capitalism and free trade reign, and bring on the cheap goods. I resisted going to Walmart for many years, and my family would laugh and scoff at me for it.


There are consequences to everything. What is the effect on bringing back steel, how much more will car prices rise because of it, and are we prepared for the fallout from that?
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-09-2018, 05:39 PM
 
372 posts, read 78,066 times
Reputation: 826
[quote=ocnjgirl;52754486]Y
I think it's the same with goods. I for one am willing to pay more for certain things. I shop small business for instance, like the family-owned hardware store that's been in my town since the 50's,



It's hard to believe that at one time, the US was a self sustaining economy. We made everything and didn't rely much on export. The word 'imported' implied high quality.


The only way (and it never will) go back to that is if people got over their addiction to quantity at the expense of quality. Those American made screwdrivers would last a lifetime, but people would rather have the 20 piece set from Harbor Freight, and they don't value them at all. This might sound stupid, but it was actually a sentimental moment when my American made can opener finally quit after 15 years. I have gone through several Chinese replacements since then.


I don't even know if we could bring back our former level of manufacturing. We don't have a workforce that will stand all day doing repetitive work day after day. We don't have the experienced supervisors who could supervise a 1,000 man plant. The mechanics who used to maintain the machinery have long retired.



Look at the incredible quantity of unwanted goods on the market - yards sales and flea markets and Goodwill, Craigslist, Ebay. All of it out of favor after a short time. Garages, basements attics and storage spaces filled to capacity. That is the legacy of my generation. More and more and more. I think the next generation will be different. I don't think they'll be wanting 3 different sets of 12 piece dinner ware, or shelves full of nick knacks.



Developing countries are evolving into consumerist nations, the way we did. I think the US's value to China as a dumping ground of unlimited cheap goods will come to an end sooner or later. They will be making and selling to their own people and India more than to the EU or US. Perhaps that was their long range plan all along - to collapse our industry (as they did with steel) and leave us incapable of resurrecting our self sustaining economy.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-10-2018, 12:17 AM
 
1,037 posts, read 562,608 times
Reputation: 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by IWLC View Post
My question would be why were those countries ever allowed to levy huge tariffs on OUR products, LONG before this administration. 12% on our autos in the Germany while ours was 2 1/2% ...
IWLC, regarding the concept of “most favored nation”:

The sovereign nation,United States of America should not permit others to intervene within our domestic affairs. Similarly, I'm opposed to our nation presuming to intervene within other sovereign nations' domestic affairs. Our international trade agreements should be limited to simple mutual “most favored nation” agreements”.
Sovereign nations should be the supreme determiners of what they permit or prohibit to pass through their own national borders.

I believe some “most favored nation” concept is explicitly or implied stated within the draft of every international trade agreement that the USA has ever entered into.

The concept of “most favored nation” clause within mutual agreements do not prohibit participating mutually agreeing nations from favoring their own entities in matters that are the subject of the agreement; (except when the practice is, within the agreement explicitly prohibited). But regarding such matters of the mutual agreement, if participating nation favors any other than their own nation, they must grant such favorable considerations to entities of all other of the mutually agreeing nations. Similarly, they may not disfavor any other mutually agreeing nation in a manner that's not applicable to all other of the mutually agreeing nations.

Other than international “most favored nation” agreements, I'm opposed to USA entering or remaining within any other international trade agreements.

If USA continues to internationally negotiate our border regulations, our trade policies will continue to be less beneficial to ourselves. I’m opposed to trading away the best interests of USA employees for the benefit of nations unwilling or unable to better compensate their own laborers.
What we permit or prohibit to pass through our national borders is a domestic matter to be determined by the sovereign United States of America. It should not be a matter of international negotiations.
Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


 
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:
Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Economics
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top