U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Economics
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 08-10-2018, 06:42 PM
 
2,240 posts, read 1,385,700 times
Reputation: 4894

Advertisements

Before I graduated college, I made 15k with no benefits. I made 3 times that immediately out of college, plus a full suite of benefits. Within four years, my salary more than doubled again. What do I need a union for? My wage ceiling is probably 2 to 5 times what I make now if not more.


Perhaps you want to go back to the days where the UAW had a “jobs bank” that allowed ideled employees to still get 95 percent of their pay. They would watch movies on site. or nap or play checkers. Sometimes senior employees would sit in the job bank near retirement as they milked 95 percent of their salary for months or even years. They then retired in their late 50s drawing a 38k per year pension from GM.

The high cost of the jobs bank versus just keeping employees on staff, kept people working even when a product wasn’t selling well. Produce produce produce. Profit? Who cares!!! We just need to keep the production cranking. The inventory would be stuffed down the channel onto the dealerships...where massive profit sapping incentives were needed to sell it.

UAW wages were more than 73 dollars an hour versus 40 dollars at non union Toyota or Honda plants.

General Motors would have plant shutdowns costing thousands per minute that resulted because one employee wasn’t allowed to flip the switch on a blown circuit for the robots. They had to wait until a different union employee could flip the switch.

Delphi automotive had people cutting the grass being paid 65 dollars an hour.

Shifts were known to hold information from each other, let maintence slip so the next shift had to do it...or change all the dials and settings so the next group had to start from scratch.

Unions can be outright combative to business. It creates an us versus them mentality that ends in ultimate destruction.

Last edited by Thatsright19; 08-10-2018 at 07:17 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 08-10-2018, 07:18 PM
 
1,461 posts, read 330,127 times
Reputation: 1663
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thatsright19 View Post
Before I graduated college, I made 15k with no benefits. I made 3 times that immediately out of college, plus a full suite of benefits. Within four years, my salary more than doubled again. What do I need a union for? My wage ceiling is probably 2 to 5 times what I make now if not more.


Perhaps you want to go back to the days where the UAW had a ďjobs bankĒ that allowed ideled employees to still get 95 percent of their pay. They would watch movies on site. or nap or play checkers. Sometimes senior employees would sit in the job bank near retirement as they milked 95 percent of their salary for months or even years. They then retired in their late 50s drawing a 38k per year pension from GM.

The high cost of the jobs bank versus just keeping employees on staff, kept people working even when a product wasnít selling well. Produce produce produce. Profit? Who cares!!! We just need to keep the production cranking. The inventory would be stuffed down the channel onto the dealerships...where massive profit sapping incentives were needed to sell it.

UAW wages were more than 73 dollars an hour versus 40 dollars at non union Toyota or Honda plants.

General Motors would have plant shutdowns costing thousands per minute that resulted because one employee wasnít allowed to flip the switch on a blown circuit for the robots. They had to wait until a different union employee could flip the switch.

Delphi automotive had people cutting the grass being paid 65 dollars an hour.

Shifts were known to hold information from each other, let maintence slip so the next shift had to do it...or change all the dials and settings so the next group had to start from scratch.

Unions can be outright combative to business. It creates an us versus them mentality that ends in ultimate destruction.
Afraid of success? What is this phenomenon?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-10-2018, 07:19 PM
 
2,240 posts, read 1,385,700 times
Reputation: 4894
Quote:
Originally Posted by ddm2k View Post
Iím not sure how thatís relevant.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-10-2018, 09:20 PM
 
Location: Arcadia, CA
101 posts, read 32,196 times
Reputation: 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodentraiser View Post
When well off people in this country think the poor deserve to stay poor and God forbid they think they're as good as "we" are, it's called a class system. And when some people are determined that others stay in the class into which they were born, now we've got a big problem that education doesn't necessarily solve.
I think it has more to do with American belief in self reliance than class system. In my observation, Americans have a strong belief that each person makes his or her own destiny so financial failures are usually attributed to personal failures.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-10-2018, 09:56 PM
 
Location: Washington state
4,679 posts, read 2,296,137 times
Reputation: 13618
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metlakatla View Post
I didn't say anything differently. I was addressing a comment about how "things didn't used to be this way." One more time, what I was saying was that back in the "good old days," people didn't try to buy homes and raise families on fast food wages, and that was meant as a statement of fact rather than the judgement call you seem to think it is. If you're trying to "debate" the value of these jobs, I'm sure you can find someone who believes what you're assuming I do...

I really don't care what they do, but if they want to work at a McJob for their entire lives, they need to understand that there will be financial difficulties involved and that they'll likely be replaced by automation at some point.

Meanwhile, the local community college says they can't get enough students to fill positions in certain trades. Baby boomers are also retiring in droves, so it's a pretty good time for those who want to move beyond McJobs to do so.
But community colleges are expensive. And people are working full time or even working two or more jobs to get by. How are they supposed to pay for college and when are they supposed to attend that college? There's only so many hours in a day and only so many scholarships and grants to go around.

What about if we put caps on how much a college can charge for tuition and books? What if we gave people a decent wage so they can afford to go back to college and learn a trade?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Metlakatla View Post
Fast food and part-time retail jobs used to be held primarily by teenagers. I don't think there was any time in our history as a country where a McDonald's employee was able to buy a house and raise a family.

Classism has existed for a long time. The "good old days" weren't nearly as good as you're trying to say. I do think, however, that many people in the past had a far better work ethic than they do now.

I have no problem with the poor wanting improve their status, but I do have a problem with the attitude that everything should be handed to them because "they're as good as anyone else." It should go without saying that every human being has intrinsic value, but when someone chooses McDonald's as a lifelong career, they're choosing to be low-income. I don't know what your comment about it being a problem that education won't solve even means. Most people who get an education don't end up sticking around McD's or Walmart.
Well, first off, I don't know why anyone who works a full time job shouldn't be able to support himself, no matter what that job is. McDonald's is a service job. Do you think people who work service jobs deserve the low pay they get? Do you think they aren't deserving of a decent wage? They're putting in 40 hours a week of their time, after all. And please don't tell me the jobs aren't important. It's not a necessity like picking up garbage, but if all the fast food places closed tomorrow, there would be a ton of unhappy people. Not only that, but I think you'd be surprised at home much those "service jobs" contribute to the economy.

And yes, there was a time in this country when a person could work a full time minimum wage job and support themselves. I ought to know - I was one of those people. I worked full time making the minimum wage of $2 an hour and I was able to support myself and live in an apartment.

Here's the other thing that bugs me. Why is the title of a job so much more important then the fact that the person is working a job, period? What if you didn't know someone worked at McDonald's and all you heard was he had a job and this is all he's paid?

I think it only benefits us if we have people working and making a decent wage. First, because our society benefits when people spend money. People buy things at businesses, businesses do more business, hire more people, and pay more wages. People who make more money pay more taxes. That's good for the economy and for the community they live in. Take a good long look at some towns where the main employer closed down. After they leave, no one is there to spend any money because nobody has any money. Businesses close down. The town dies. We've all seen that happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KaraG View Post
Well, I don't know any people with attitudes like you describe so I disagree that it is taking over our country.
How could you not know them? They post on CD all the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supposn View Post
RodentRaiser, I'm among the proponents for gradually increasing the purchasing power of the Federal minimum wage rate by 12% each New Years day until it attains 125% of 1968 purchasing power and also monitoring and adjusting it each labor day to stay abreast with a federal cost-price index number. That cost of living adjustment has sucessfully retained social Security retirement benefits' purchasing powers.

I'm also among the proponents of USA enacting the improved trade policy described in Wikipedia's “Import Certificates” article.
The unilateral IC policy would significantly reduce, if not entirely eliminate our nations chronic annual trade deficits of goods while increasing our GDP and numbers of jobs more than otherwise. The substantially market-driven policy's entire direct expenses are passed on to USA purchasers of imported goods.
That's awesome, but can that be done without putting a cap on rental rates, housing prices, and college tuition at the same time? I always thought if we could just keep housing rates to where people can afford them and keep tuition affordable, we might not need to to go to war to raise job wages. But of course, that ship has sailed since wages are so far behind now...


Quote:
Originally Posted by ObserverJC View Post
I think it has more to do with American belief in self reliance than class system. In my observation, Americans have a strong belief that each person makes his or her own destiny so financial failures are usually attributed to personal failures.
I'm the most independent person you're ever going to meet. But I have to ask, as admirable as this belief in self sufficiency is, at this point in time are we just being stubbornly obtuse by insisting on abiding by this belief? Especially when so many people who talk about pulling themselves up by their bootstraps have actually depended on parents, inherited money, and good luck to succeed in life? Maybe it's time to put this self reliance belief to bed and try something else that works for everyone, not for just a few.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-10-2018, 10:06 PM
 
Location: Vallejo
13,437 posts, read 15,036,253 times
Reputation: 11924
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodentraiser View Post
Hmmm...I wouldn't be able to live below my means either if my entire paycheck went to rent, utilites, and food. To live below their means, which would you like them to cut back on?

While I think you're wrong about most people having a fairly high income, I like to focus on the lower 40% because those are the ones who will cost the country the most in social services if they run into a spate of bad luck, like a medical emergency or a job loss. Those are also the ones with the most capability of moving up and paying more in taxes with a higher salary, benefiting the community and everyone who lives there. They're also the ones who have the least chance of advancing.
If 80% live paycheck to paycheck, that simply means for every person making under $75,000/yr that's not living paycheck to paycheck there's another one making more than $75,000 that is. Some don't have the option, but clearly making $75,000/yr one does. Shockingly the 80% figure is fairly accurate. It's not about income for at least half of them. It's about their spending habits. Give them more income and they'll just spend it and still be paycheck to paycheck.

Quote:
This isn't a question just for you, Malloric, but for anyone who cares to answer:

I understand that there are some things people do to put themselves in that position. But if you had someone in front of you, working two low wage jobs to support a family, living paycheck to paycheck (never mind how they got in that position), and you knew no one was going to step in with extra money, what, exactly, would you tell him or her to do first? Whatever you tell them to do, remember money still has to come in so this family can eat and have a roof over their heads.
Increase earning potential.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-10-2018, 10:28 PM
 
20,417 posts, read 26,539,344 times
Reputation: 13111
I didn't even finish reading your post, rodentraiser. I'm busy working. You lost me at "do you think people working at McD's deserve low pay?" My comments weren't about what they deserve, just about the reality of that kind of job. Automation will take those McD jobs before they ever pay a living wage. That's reality, and anyone who wants to make something of themselves should be seeking alternatives to hamburger jobs.

Sure, we all have our personal visions of a utopian society, but being an adult means you have the ability to deal with the world while working for whatever change you want to see instead of trying to insist that it change all at once to suit your ideals.

People of my generation would have LOVED to have been in our prime working years in this economy. Instead, we got recession after recession. I was lucky enough not to lose everything like so many others in 2008, but I know plenty of people who did.

Community college is easier than ever these days with online classes that allow students to study on their own schedules. Pell grants are still available to anyone who qualifies. Nobody ever said that putting yourself through school is easy, but there are people doing so.

McDonald's actually offers a tuition assistance program to employees, btw. So does WalMart. We didn't have those options when I was in school.

There's money for education out there.

https://www.collegegrant.net/trade-school-grants/

Quote:
And yes, there was a time in this country when a person could work a full time minimum wage job and support themselves. I ought to know - I was one of those people. I worked full time making the minimum wage of $2 an hour and I was able to support myself and live in an apartment.
Again with putting words in my mouth, smh. I didn't say that there wasn't a time when people who worked minimum wage jobs couldn't support themselves. I said that buying a home and supporting a family didn't happen on burger joint jobs..

Last edited by Metlakatla; 08-10-2018 at 10:41 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-10-2018, 10:42 PM
 
Location: Washington state
4,679 posts, read 2,296,137 times
Reputation: 13618
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metlakatla View Post
I didn't even finish reading your post, rodentraiser. I'm busy working. You lost me at "do you think people working at McD's deserve low pay?" My comments weren't about what they deserve, just about the reality of that kind of job. Automation will take those McD jobs before they ever pay a living wage. That's reality, and anyone who wants to make something of themselves should be seeking alternatives to hamburger jobs.

People of my generation would have LOVED to have been in our prime working years in this economy. Instead, we got recession after recession. I was lucky enough not to lose everything like so many others in 2008, but I know plenty of people who did.

Community college is easier than ever these days with online classes that allow students to study on their own schedules. Pell grants are still available to anyone who qualifies. Nobody ever said that putting yourself through school is easy, but there are people doing so.

McDonald's actually offers a tuition assistance program to employees, btw. So does WalMart. We didn't have those options when I was in school.

There's money for education out there.

https://www.collegegrant.net/trade-school-grants/



Again with putting words in my mouth, smh. I didn't say that there wasn't a time when people who worked minimum wage jobs couldn't support themselves. I said that buying a home and supporting a family didn't happen on burger joint jobs..
https://www.tampabay.com/news/politi...family/2171338


"In 1968, the minimum wage for most workers was $1.60 an hour. An employee working at that rate for 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year, would have earned $3,328. That was above the poverty thresholds that year for a three person-household: $2,817 annually for a home headed by a man and $2,516 for a home headed by a woman."


But as long as you say "that's the reality" and then walk the other way, nothing will ever change or get done. Maybe it's high time that isn't the reality any more, ya think? And as I've already pointed out, not everyone qualifies or gets a Pell grant, a loan, or a scholarship. I was living in my truck, and I didn't qualify for one. And don't you think we'd be better off if everyone who wanted a college education could get one? Not just the few who are lucky enough to get grants, loans, or scholarships?

You see the current situation as something we're all permanently stuck with, like having blue eyes. I see it as something that can be changed for the better.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-10-2018, 11:02 PM
 
1,461 posts, read 330,127 times
Reputation: 1663
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thatsright19 View Post
Iím not sure how thatís relevant.
Gonna bookmark this and come back tomorrow with some questions. It's getting late here on the east coast.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-10-2018, 11:09 PM
 
20,417 posts, read 26,539,344 times
Reputation: 13111
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodentraiser View Post
https://www.tampabay.com/news/politi...family/2171338


"In 1968, the minimum wage for most workers was $1.60 an hour. An employee working at that rate for 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year, would have earned $3,328. That was above the poverty thresholds that year for a three person-household: $2,817 annually for a home headed by a man and $2,516 for a home headed by a woman."


But as long as you say "that's the reality" and then walk the other way, nothing will ever change or get done. Maybe it's high time that isn't the reality any more, ya think? And as I've already pointed out, not everyone qualifies or gets a Pell grant, a loan, or a scholarship. I was living in my truck, and I didn't qualify for one.
And don't you think we'd be better off if everyone who wanted a college education could get one? Not just the few who are lucky enough to get grants, loans, or scholarships?

You see the current situation as something we're all permanently stuck with, like having blue eyes. I see it as something that can be changed for the better.
No, I just understand sitting around whining won't get you anywhere in life and expecting a hamburger job to supply you with a good quality of life isn't realistic. Even at Bernie's $15 an hour (which the old hypocrite wouldn't even pay his own staff), it's just not enough. There's a limit to how much hamburger workers are going to be able to make, sorry.

Although I agree that someone working 40 hours per week should ideally be able to fully support themselves even if they're getting minimum wage, it isn't realistic to expect a hamburger job to supply a middle class lifestyle.

As far as education, as I already told you, there's money available, and everyone who falls within certain income guidelines qualifies for at least the basics. Just working part-time at McD's might be worth it just for the tuition assistance. If you were living in your truck and couldn't qualify, that's because you didn't meet the requirements. Plenty of people qualify who are capable of also paying rent, so I'm not sure what your problem was.

Quote:
"In 1968, the minimum wage for most workers was $1.60 an hour. An employee working at that rate for 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year, would have earned $3,328. That was above the poverty thresholds that year for a three person-household: $2,817 annually for a home headed by a man and $2,516 for a home headed by a woman."
The article conveniently doesn't account for taxes. After taxes, they were probably right around the poverty threshold. It proves my point -- hamburger jobs have never been enough to support families on.

I'm sorry you can't understand the difference between dealing with reality and sitting around crying for someone to fix the world for you. You keep harping on the good old days, but they weren't so good.

Last edited by Metlakatla; 08-10-2018 at 11:30 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Economics
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top