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Old 08-10-2018, 11:28 PM
 
Location: Arcadia, CA
101 posts, read 32,196 times
Reputation: 148

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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodentraiser View Post
I'm the most independent person you're ever going to meet. But I have to ask, as admirable as this belief in self sufficiency is, at this point in time are we just being stubbornly obtuse by insisting on abiding by this belief? Especially when so many people who talk about pulling themselves up by their bootstraps have actually depended on parents, inherited money, and good luck to succeed in life? Maybe it's time to put this self reliance belief to bed and try something else that works for everyone, not for just a few.
I too agree Americans' belief in self reliance needed to be updated, but given how deep it has embedded itself into American culture it is going to be a very difficult task, such as convincing people there are forces beyond their control that could alter their lives.
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Old 08-10-2018, 11:51 PM
 
1,914 posts, read 1,085,963 times
Reputation: 2042
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teak View Post
When I stop seeing the Average Joe running around with an iPhone, I will begin to feel sorry for him or her (Average Annie). The iPhoneX now sells for nearly $1k, correct? Absolutely ridiculous. And many upgrade every few months.

Entitlement mentality has taken the USA by storm and we will all pay for it, some more than others.
Oh, please. They are practically giving nice phones away nowadays.
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Old 08-11-2018, 12:07 AM
 
1,914 posts, read 1,085,963 times
Reputation: 2042
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metlakatla View Post
I didn't say anything differently. I was addressing a comment about how "things didn't used to be this way." One more time, what I was saying was that back in the "good old days," people didn't try to buy homes and raise families on fast food wages, and that was meant as a statement of fact rather than the judgement call you seem to think it is. If you're trying to "debate" the value of these jobs, I'm sure you can find someone who believes what you're assuming I do...

I really don't care what they do, but if they want to work at a McJob for their entire lives, they need to understand that there will be financial difficulties involved and that they'll likely be replaced by automation at some point.

Meanwhile, the local community college says they can't get enough students to fill positions in certain trades. Baby boomers are also retiring in droves, so it's a pretty good time for those who want to move beyond McJobs to do so.
This discussion often devolves into an extreme black or white false dichotomy. This discussion isn't (or shouldn't be) framed around McDonalds workers as the preeminent example of low value jobs and wages. Because for McDonalds workers, it's obvious that they aren't going to raising families and/or buying homes.

Other examples don't fit your argument quite so well.

Construction workers wages are in the toilet.
Transportation wages are in the toilet (trucking, driving, etc)
Admin assistant and other office job wages are in the toilet.
Factory workers wages are in the toilet.
Utility workers wages are in the toilet. (they've been getting killed for years, I know several people that work for them)
Airline pilot wages are in the toilet (at least relatively speaking).
(certain types of) attorney and paralegal wages are in the toilet.
College Professor wages are in the toilet.

The list goes on and on. Don't tell me these people have no value. They absolutely do. And honestly, those fields are just the tip of the iceberg. I'm in my mid 40s. The people I work with are all about the same age. We remember very well 25 years ago, when most of the talented people made enough money to afford vacation homes, jet skis, nice dinners and concerts, money in the bank, etc......

Nowadays it's 1 out of 100 that are cleaning up and everybody else is struggling. And it's got nothing whatsoever to do with value.
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Old 08-11-2018, 12:12 AM
 
1,914 posts, read 1,085,963 times
Reputation: 2042
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malloric View Post
If 80% live paycheck to paycheck, that simply means for every person making under $75,000/yr that's not living paycheck to paycheck there's another one making more than $75,000 that is. Some don't have the option, but clearly making $75,000/yr one does. Shockingly the 80% figure is fairly accurate. It's not about income for at least half of them. It's about their spending habits. Give them more income and they'll just spend it and still be paycheck to paycheck.



Increase earning potential.
I emphatically disagree with the bolded. Have you actually taken out a calculator and determined what it actually costs to survive nowadays? Where I live a basic survival wage (food, shelter, insurance, transportation) is well in excess of the median wage. That means that the majority are not going to be saving money- no matter how well they budget their money.
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Old 08-11-2018, 12:24 AM
 
1,461 posts, read 330,127 times
Reputation: 1667
Quote:
Originally Posted by dysgenic View Post
This discussion often devolves into an extreme black or white false dichotomy. This discussion isn't (or shouldn't be) framed around McDonalds workers as the preeminent example of low value jobs and wages. Because for McDonalds workers, it's obvious that they aren't going to raising families and/or buying homes.

Other examples don't fit your argument quite so well.

Construction workers wages are in the toilet.
Transportation wages are in the toilet (trucking, driving, etc)
Admin assistant and other office job wages are in the toilet.
Factory workers wages are in the toilet.
Utility workers wages are in the toilet. (they've been getting killed for years, I know several people that work for them)
Airline pilot wages are in the toilet (at least relatively speaking).
(certain types of) attorney and paralegal wages are in the toilet.
College Professor wages are in the toilet.

The list goes on and on. Don't tell me these people have no value. They absolutely do. And honestly, those fields are just the tip of the iceberg. I'm in my mid 40s. The people I work with are all about the same age. We remember very well 25 years ago, when most of the talented people made enough money to afford vacation homes, jet skis, nice dinners and concerts, money in the bank, etc......

Nowadays it's 1 out of 100 that are cleaning up and everybody else is struggling. And it's got nothing whatsoever to do with value.
No one sells basic goods anymore. Foods are organic, cuisine is elevated, and crap Korean car manufacturers are now making entry level luxury sedans.

Advertising, licensing, royalties, and retail markups all chip away at your dollar's earning power. A few companies are getting it right by way of vertical integration and bringing prices back down again. A good example is Warby Parker. A eyeglass retailer who offers trendy frames but they're all in-house brands. LensCrafters technically did integrate vertically by parent company Luxottica manufacturing popular designer brand frames, but royalties still have to be paid to the brands themselves. Any savings did not go to lower prices but to widen manufacturer margins even further.
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Old 08-11-2018, 12:33 AM
 
20,419 posts, read 26,544,024 times
Reputation: 13114
Quote:
Originally Posted by dysgenic View Post
This discussion often devolves into an extreme black or white false dichotomy. This discussion isn't (or shouldn't be) framed around McDonalds workers as the preeminent example of low value jobs and wages. Because for McDonalds workers, it's obvious that they aren't going to raising families and/or buying homes.

Other examples don't fit your argument quite so well.

Construction workers wages are in the toilet.
Transportation wages are in the toilet (trucking, driving, etc)
Admin assistant and other office job wages are in the toilet.
Factory workers wages are in the toilet.
Utility workers wages are in the toilet. (they've been getting killed for years, I know several people that work for them)
Airline pilot wages are in the toilet (at least relatively speaking).
(certain types of) attorney and paralegal wages are in the toilet.
College Professor wages are in the toilet.

The list goes on and on. Don't tell me these people have no value. They absolutely do. And honestly, those fields are just the tip of the iceberg. I'm in my mid 40s. The people I work with are all about the same age. We remember very well 25 years ago, when most of the talented people made enough money to afford vacation homes, jet skis, nice dinners and concerts, money in the bank, etc......

Nowadays it's 1 out of 100 that are cleaning up and everybody else is struggling. And it's got nothing whatsoever to do with value.
Whoa. I was addressing commentary specific to hamburger jobs, and all of a sudden here's a list of other jobs with the admonition not to "tell you that else people have no value." Again, my comments were directed at someone who believes that hamburger jobs should pay enough to allow someone to raise a family and buy a home. Maybe you should try reading the discussion in its entirety instead of picking something to complain about. BTW, I never said hamburger workers have no value, so don't put words in my mouth. What I said was that it's unrealistic to expect a McD job to support a family and buy a home. Do you agree or disagree with that?

This thread certainly is full of those who twist words to support their "debate."
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Old 08-11-2018, 12:38 AM
 
20,419 posts, read 26,544,024 times
Reputation: 13114
Quote:
Originally Posted by dysgenic View Post
Airline pilot wages are in the toilet (at least relatively speaking).
Must be a pretty nice toilet.

How Much Do Airline Pilots Make? Commercial, Private, More | Money
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Old 08-11-2018, 03:19 AM
 
Location: Gilbert, Arizona
2,600 posts, read 1,004,271 times
Reputation: 1557
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metlakatla View Post
Whoa. I was addressing commentary specific to hamburger jobs, and all of a sudden here's a list of other jobs with the admonition not to "tell you that else people have no value." Again, my comments were directed at someone who believes that hamburger jobs should pay enough to allow someone to raise a family and buy a home. Maybe you should try reading the discussion in its entirety instead of picking something to complain about. BTW, I never said hamburger workers have no value, so don't put words in my mouth. What I said was that it's unrealistic to expect a McD job to support a family and buy a home. Do you agree or disagree with that?

This thread certainly is full of those who twist words to support their "debate."
Look, what you put in bold, is not exactly wrong to state in a debate. However in the context of an entire economic system, if these "hamburger jobs" aren't supposed to support a family and a home, then define what does? $12/hr? $13/hr? Education level? IQ level? Type of job? Industry? And then, who's to say that whatever you pick, is "supposed to" support a family/home? Just by sheer majority of the entire working population agreeing with you (50.1%+)?

Well, whatever that lower limit for the wage you'd need to earn to support a family/home, I'd be hard pressed if you can find that number of good jobs that'll provide enough jobs for everyone.

The simple fact is, most families today are 2 income families because, both work low paying service jobs that literally pays them close to or hamburger wages. (Look for yourself at the statistics, pay attention to personal income statistics, not household income). Families only make it because you got Dad making say $35k and mom making another $25-30k which gives the family ~$60k to live on per year. But both dad and mom has crap jobs in terms of "hamburger jobs". Whereas a "good job" say in a highly technical field in STEM would pay some entry level graduate $60k-70k to be a keyboard monkey for the first 2 years or so. Wages are just a function of supply and demand. This game of the free market has a small number of winners and a large amount of losers, it just how it's meant to work. The less people that can do more skilled work, the higher their wages goes up assuming constant demand. To my eyes, there is no job that you can precisely say, should be able to afford x, y, and z. The free market is what tricks you into thinking that the value of hamburger flipper are less valuable than a scientist and pits you into devaluing your own fellow citizens career path.
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Old 08-11-2018, 06:34 AM
 
Location: USA
6,171 posts, read 4,948,777 times
Reputation: 10547
Quote:
Originally Posted by reneeh63 View Post
That's because the subsidies are poorly planned - they should be gradually phased out as income rises rather than completely cut off because that would encourage people to work more hours and at better jobs. You'd just say they were stupid if they took more hours and ended up worse off! People do what they are incented to do.
Not everyone can get a "better" job. Even if everyone miraculously could get a computer science degree, there are still tons of low paid work that needs to be done.


Replying to a few posts I see above, STEM jobs pay high because the bell curve is a factor. The vast majority of the country does not have the IQ to get through the schooling to obtain one of those jobs.
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Old 08-11-2018, 07:07 AM
 
5,155 posts, read 2,346,169 times
Reputation: 1848
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thatsright19 View Post
Before I graduated college, I made 15k with no benefits. I made 3 times that immediately out of college, plus a full suite of benefits. Within four years, my salary more than doubled again. What do I need a union for? My wage ceiling is probably 2 to 5 times what I make now if not more.


Perhaps you want to go back to the days where the UAW had a “jobs bank” that allowed ideled employees to still get 95 percent of their pay. They would watch movies on site. or nap or play checkers. Sometimes senior employees would sit in the job bank near retirement as they milked 95 percent of their salary for months or even years. They then retired in their late 50s drawing a 38k per year pension from GM.

The high cost of the jobs bank versus just keeping employees on staff, kept people working even when a product wasn’t selling well. Produce produce produce. Profit? Who cares!!! We just need to keep the production cranking. The inventory would be stuffed down the channel onto the dealerships...where massive profit sapping incentives were needed to sell it.

UAW wages were more than 73 dollars an hour versus 40 dollars at non union Toyota or Honda plants.

General Motors would have plant shutdowns costing thousands per minute that resulted because one employee wasn’t allowed to flip the switch on a blown circuit for the robots. They had to wait until a different union employee could flip the switch.

Delphi automotive had people cutting the grass being paid 65 dollars an hour.

Shifts were known to hold information from each other, let maintence slip so the next shift had to do it...or change all the dials and settings so the next group had to start from scratch.

Unions can be outright combative to business. It creates an us versus them mentality that ends in ultimate destruction.

How come it is ok when thousands of business organize together and lobby politicians to rig the markets in their favor and noone bats an eye lid, but workers organizing together and the sky is falling?
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