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Old 09-02-2018, 07:28 AM
 
Location: Boston
5,645 posts, read 1,662,895 times
Reputation: 4187

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyewackette View Post
Not as long as we insist on being pigs at the trough, crowding everyone else out and hogging all the resources.

Life is as fair as we choose to make it. The fact that an awful lot of people out there insist on using "life isn't fair" as an excuse to make it even MORE unfair for others is reprehensible. We should be doing our level best to MAKE it fair.

Only people can do that for each other. You have to decide to treat others fairly. Instead the majority are still stuck in this "greed is good" mentality and take "life isn't fair" as an excuse to tramp all over others. Who cares, I've got mine, and I'm taking yours, too.
it's not an excuse, it's a fact. I'm not entitled to what you earned and you're not entitled to what I've earned. Greediness is expecting others to pay your way, that's not happening
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Old 09-02-2018, 08:34 AM
 
66,942 posts, read 67,955,189 times
Reputation: 44857
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marv95 View Post
Exactly. One big reason why the recession/housing crash happened was due to stupid reckless people spending more than they could afford.
there so so much more involved than buying to much house . remember all these people were paying their bills , it was only when the job losses started that their were major issues ..

what happened in housing was the result of the perfect storm . untested new cdo products , the credit default markets turning in to vegas betting casino's',all contributed to the fall off in money to loan in the credit markets .

money is the blood of business and when the blood stopped flowing job losses were what followed . that is what contributed most to the defaults . then as others saw they owed more than the homes were worth they stopped paying .
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Old 09-02-2018, 08:59 AM
 
7,037 posts, read 4,585,215 times
Reputation: 12367
Quote:
Originally Posted by mathjak107 View Post
the same old job should not be worth anymore then it was in real wages and in fact may be worth less with automation today so except for keeping up or close to inflation why should that same job be worth more in inflation adjusted dollars ? it shouldn't is the answer
This is the crux of the debate. Productivity has increased for "the same old job", has it not? Some would argue, that higher productivity should mean an increase in real wages, for the same workers who are more productive in the same job.

Consider say a coal miner in 1880, 1930, 1980 and today. The coal miner likely saw a heady increase in real wages between 1880 and 1980, but stagnatoon since then. Coal-extraction productivity increased more or less perennially throughout this time, albeit less (perhaps) over the past 40 years. So, it stands to reason, that the increase in real coal-mining wages would be less in recent decades, than 100 years ago. But should it be outright zero?

Phrased alternatively, the primary question is, how do we distribute the fruits of productivity growth, between labor, management and capital? Then the second question: what happens if/when productivity growth rate declines?
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Old 09-02-2018, 10:28 AM
 
Location: Saint John, IN
10,815 posts, read 3,521,121 times
Reputation: 13037
My DH and I make very good money, but he had a horrific car accident 4 years ago that almost bankrupt us. Yes, we had insurance but high deductibles spread over several years due to ongoing surgeries, plus short term disability only pays 70% of pay. This year I have been being screened for breast cancer. Several biopsies and a surgery. My daughter also broke a bone. More high deductibles. We are paying our bills just fine, but still in debt due to all of this medical and struggling to get out of it. We would be just fine had our insurance paid 100%, but these high deductibles are killing us! Im sure Im not the only one in this boat! Damn government needs to reform healthcare fast!!
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Old 09-02-2018, 10:30 AM
 
634 posts, read 750,685 times
Reputation: 804
Quote:
Originally Posted by ohio_peasant View Post
This is the crux of the debate. Productivity has increased for "the same old job", has it not? Some would argue, that higher productivity should mean an increase in real wages, for the same workers who are more productive in the same job.

Consider say a coal miner in 1880, 1930, 1980 and today. The coal miner likely saw a heady increase in real wages between 1880 and 1980, but stagnatoon since then. Coal-extraction productivity increased more or less perennially throughout this time, albeit less (perhaps) over the past 40 years. So, it stands to reason, that the increase in real coal-mining wages would be less in recent decades, than 100 years ago. But should it be outright zero?

Phrased alternatively, the primary question is, how do we distribute the fruits of productivity growth, between labor, management and capital? Then the second question: what happens if/when productivity growth rate declines?
Market forces sort the imbalances of RISK capital and labor out. It is not always pretty, but history has proven time and time again that in the long run it is the way that produces the most wealth overall. And the rising tide DOES lift all boats. You almost have to be willfully negligent to be hungry in this country with all of the jobs available, and government assistance for the especially lazy ones.

I own a stone quarry. Mining is always a risky proposition and requires some brains and judgement, and a lot of risk capital. Who volunteers to step in and contribute for my next project?

Opportunity and wealth creation is not like an apple pie, with only a few pieces that must be shared by a growing population. Get out and help us expand the size of the pie with your own brains and effort.

Real wealth creation is not easy, it takes some brains, hard work, and some luck. It is not enough to come in and punch a clock, then mostly gossip and waste half the day. A monkey can do that. You cannot expect to create a prosperous life if that describes your work life.

Last edited by teakboat; 09-02-2018 at 11:30 AM..
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Old 09-02-2018, 10:36 AM
 
66,942 posts, read 67,955,189 times
Reputation: 44857
as technology improves , workers are expected to get more productivity with the same efforts and skills so wages pretty much stay the same for the same job .

take the example of a workers who can do 50% more output than all the other workers doing th same job on the same machines , well now we are talking a merit raise
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Old 09-02-2018, 10:42 AM
 
634 posts, read 750,685 times
Reputation: 804
Quote:
Originally Posted by mathjak107 View Post
as technology improves , workers are expected to get more productivity with the same efforts and skills so wages pretty much stay the same for the same job .

take the example of a workers who can do 50% more output than all the other workers doing th same job on the same machines , well now we are talking a merit raise
Right, it is tough. But the productivity gains mean that stuff is cheaper in real dollars than it was in the past.

People are not struggling any more now than they were in the past, when they were happy to live in a boarding house with a shared bathroom, and paying a very large percentage of their weekly pay for basic food items like bread, eggs and milk. Those things are nearly free now by comparison.
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Old 09-02-2018, 10:45 AM
 
634 posts, read 750,685 times
Reputation: 804
Quote:
Originally Posted by CGab View Post
My DH and I make very good money, but he had a horrific car accident 4 years ago that almost bankrupt us. Yes, we had insurance but high deductibles spread over several years due to ongoing surgeries, plus short term disability only pays 70% of pay. This year I have been being screened for breast cancer. Several biopsies and a surgery. My daughter also broke a bone. More high deductibles. We are paying our bills just fine, but still in debt due to all of this medical and struggling to get out of it. We would be just fine had our insurance paid 100%, but these high deductibles are killing us! I’m sure I’m not the only one in this boat! Damn government needs to reform healthcare fast!!
Health care is the killer cost, and it is where the US has failed the worst. I think it came about due to an over reliance on insurance, which has served to increase overall costs approximately by the amount of the insurance company profits, plus it has induced doctors and hospitals to freely overcharge for their services.

The original purpose of insurance was to pool catastrophic risk, not to pay a middle man to see a doctor for a cold.
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Old 09-02-2018, 11:18 AM
 
Location: Paranoid State
13,047 posts, read 9,825,953 times
Reputation: 15571
Quote:
Originally Posted by corydon View Post
People all over the planet believe in freedom. But get better government that do care.
Repeat after me: it is NOT the job of the government to take care of me.
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Old 09-02-2018, 12:05 PM
 
Location: Oregon, formerly Texas
5,273 posts, read 3,507,586 times
Reputation: 8861
Almost everyone on this board who has cited a struggle mentioned health care. 4 out of 5 people I know who were doing okay then not was because of a health crisis.

If that's not an indictment of our health care system I don't know what is. A better health care system will not resolve poverty but it'll go a long way towards keeping people out of it who otherwise wouldn't fall in.

Last edited by redguard57; 09-02-2018 at 01:02 PM..
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