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Old 09-30-2018, 09:40 PM
 
Location: Malaga Spain & Lady Lake, Florida
1,129 posts, read 468,007 times
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I’ve been reading this thread and have really been touched by some of the posts from people affected by the failure of US health care, regardless of how good anyone thinks the US is the healthcare system sucks and unless you are very fortunate it is third world.

I see that many young people are happy posting how well they are doing in life and that those doing not so well have generally themselves to blame

This confidence we all have when being so young and naive, it is though a little sad seeing that the part of the American dream to fulfill ones own dreams conflicts so strongly with other values held supposedly so high like Equality and Unity, especially where healthcare is concerned.

I left the thread to see what is spent where and how it compares around the world and then posted the below in the healthcare section of C-D

Sorry for repeating myself but I think it belongs in both debates

I’ve just been reading an interesting debate on C-D about the US economy growing with many people commenting how their live have not improved and how many lives have been pretty much broken by the sorry state of health care in the US, with many supposedly middle class people becoming bankrupt or close to it after a few health issues as they are ageing as we all do and the subsequent bills they have had to pay despite them having insurance often paying $700 per month and then having to pay thousands of dollars for anything they need on top.

I really struggle with the whole healcare thing in the US and can’t believe that’s it’s not a higher priority.


I’ve just done a little research online

These actually downplays the differences https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-42950587
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulat...lly/2016-11-01

But still the US government are paying into obamacare and the like to the tune of double that of Europe per gdp for their healthcare but this covers only a small percentage of the US population on a very basic level.

Based on what is being paid in, every American should be fully covered by this contribution with totally no need for any insurance or extra contribution whatsoever for any treatment when needed by any US citizens.

In the words of Trump, it’s a massive con job.
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Old 09-30-2018, 09:40 PM
 
2,360 posts, read 1,905,919 times
Reputation: 2118
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post

If you don't like it, then start your own construction company, acquire land, and start building single-family and multi-family units to match demand and halt or reduce prices.





Cite the law, corollary or theory of Economics that says wages should keep pace with the Cost-of-Living.

The purpose of Demand-pull Inflation is stop the depletion, overuse or over-consumption of resources, goods and services.

Why would you want to accelerate the depletion, overuse or over-consumption of resources, goods and services?

Well, a hedonist certainly would, but rational people wouldn't.

Demand-pull Inflation forces people to alter their Standard of Living and Life-Style.

If you don't like it, then stop consuming or start a company to increase supply to match or exceed demand.

The only thing stopping you, is you.



And why should real wages increase?

Your wages shouldn't be this high anyway, and the only reason they are is because the US barred the development of dozens and dozens of countries, and a confluence of global events that thrust the US into a position of primacy.

You can't maintain that position forever for any number of reasons.

When the end is known, and it will be known within a century or two, your wages will be the same as everyone else on Earth. That's how the laws of Economics work.

And their the other common excuse.. GO start your own company motto. Sorry if the world was that easy we all be starting our own business. Like some posters said, these million dollar CEOs can go a few years with out a check and still live healthy if they so choose to distribute his/her check to give other raises so they can put food on the table. Were pretty much the only country ( modern) that requires a person to work 2 or more jobs to put bread on the table, because of so much greed we have in our nation.
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Old 10-01-2018, 02:39 AM
 
106,238 posts, read 108,237,907 times
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many times these ceo's do go years without checks as ceo jobs come and go .

not that i would run them a benefit but if they can command that much compensation then i don't begrudge them . it is not they should do worse , it is those who want more, need to figure out their own way of getting more.

if you want things more even move to a communist or socialist country .

you don't exactly see people trying to sneak out of capitalist countries and get in to communist ones do you ? what does that tell you .
it is usually going to be those who have not learned how to get there share, who want it taken from those who have .
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Old 10-01-2018, 02:46 AM
 
30,876 posts, read 36,854,288 times
Reputation: 34467
Quote:
Originally Posted by banjomike View Post
The dominant religion in Utah also has a lot to do with that middle class solidity. The LDS church has always supported it's own when all other support fails. The church has just as many of its permanently poor as any other, but its willing to accept them as a fact of life.

They always have from their earliest days. It's part religion and part tradition, and the support has never been easily granted. There's always some form of repayment involved, and the biggest part of the repayment demand is adherence to the faith.
Well, yes. I agree with all of that. It's what the political left used to refer to as the "social contract". The more broad form wasn't as strict as what the LDS religion demands. But the social contract Post WW2 until the late 1960s of high union wages and not shaking people down for every last dollar (and not allowing banks to allow people to borrow up to the hilt) also expected certain behavioral standards form people--like not having kids outside marriage. The social contract has been thrown out and that's allowed people to indulge in their worst tendencies, which generally leads to stuff like entrenched wealth at the top and entrenched poverty at the bottom. If you don't have social rules, a few people will do awesome financially and a lot of others will self destruct. Most people aren't naturally wired for good/rational financial decision making.
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Old 10-01-2018, 02:48 AM
 
30,876 posts, read 36,854,288 times
Reputation: 34467
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2sleepy View Post
This isn't the politics forum, if you want to turn it into that then please start a new thread there.
As if the original article didn't have a political agenda citing the Urban Institute. A cop out response. Not surprising.

2005 study of media bias in The Quarterly Journal of Economics ranked UI as the 11th most liberal of the 50 most-cited think tanks and policy groups, placing it between the NAACP and the People for Ethical Treatment of Animals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urban_...e#cite_note-15
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Old 10-01-2018, 03:00 AM
 
30,876 posts, read 36,854,288 times
Reputation: 34467
Quote:
Originally Posted by jertheber View Post
Over four hundred responses and we're still debating the fact that many haven't' prospered in America,.
I, for one, do not debate that. Many people aren't prospering. Problem is, most want prosperity but s*ck at or don't like doing the things that bring it.

Unfortunately, we have a strong tendency to do what is familiar, not what is good for us; and the two are often at odds.
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Old 10-01-2018, 03:02 AM
 
106,238 posts, read 108,237,907 times
Reputation: 79776
Quote:
Originally Posted by mysticaltyger View Post
I, for one, do not debate that. Many people aren't prospering. Problem is, most want prosperity but s*ck at or don't like doing the things that bring it.

Unfortunately, we have a strong tendency to do what is familiar, not what is good for us; and the two are often at odds.
that really is the issue . they want to prosper but can't . so then their view is if others are doing to well they should spread their compensation to others ..

Last edited by mathjak107; 10-01-2018 at 03:11 AM..
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Old 10-01-2018, 03:25 AM
 
30,876 posts, read 36,854,288 times
Reputation: 34467
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
That's exactly right.

It wasn't until the late 1950s that States began mandating insurers cover pregnancy/maternity. By the early 1960s, all States had mandated it.

Over the next several decades, as new medical conditions were discovered, and new medical treatments and procedures were developed, along with new forms of medical diagnostics and new pharmaceutical drugs, States began mandating more and more coverage.

Each new mandate increases the cost of health plan coverage.

In the 1990s, States began mandating coverage for doctor office visits.




Both healthcare and health insurance are intra-State commerce, not interstate commerce, so Congress is powerless to do anything.

It's totally unconscionable that you do not understand that, and an ethical person would refrain from voting in elections.

Only the States can act.

What would help immensely is if States barred "Out-of-Network" which is a policy created by the American Hospital Association in the mid-1930s to drive those hospitals that were members of the American Medical Association out of business.

If only one State would do that, the rest would follow suit.

Then, if States redefined catastrophic care, and mandated that only, allowing people to choose a la carte their other coverage in the form of riders, it would make health plan coverage affordable for all.

It's manifestly unfair to force the elderly to purchase pregnancy/maternity and birth control coverage, when they have no use for it and don't want it.

People who want doctor office visits covered can purchase a rider, and pay extra for that privilege.


If States started taxing employers, they could drive people out from under the umbrella of their employer into State-wide pools.


If you think 27 Million businesses creates a competitive environment, what do you think 250 Million people will do?




That's because you have have hospitals.

Euro-States don't use hospitals, as the former German Minister of Health makes perfectly clear here:

Polyclinics—clusters of general practitioners who work together to form more specialized primary care centers—were used extensively and quite successfully in the former German Democratic Republic.

However, many politicians in West Germany initially disliked the idea of polyclinics because they associated them with communist ideology. It took a while for many people to understand that polyclinics offer significant advantages with regard to communication, coordination, and cooperation.

Source: How Germany is reining in health care costs: An interview with Franz Knieps pp 30-31.

Britain, Sweden and Portugal have refused to abandon hospitals, but the rest of Europe has.

Hospitals are the least effective, least efficient and most costly means of healthcare delivery.

Sad that communist countries adopted the corollaries of Capitalist Property Theory: Diversification & Specialization, while the US has not.

Unless you make your healthcare system like Europe, then you will never realize the cost-savings that Euro-States gain.

Over-laying UHC onto a broken system is not going to reduce costs, but adopting the policies Euro-States have will reduce costs.

Why does open-heart surgery only cost $13,000 at a cardio-pulmonary clinic, while it costs $26,000 to $42,000 at a hospital?

Because hospitals operate as monopolies and monopolistic cartels to illegally collude to illegally fix prices above market rates.

And, because hospitals are grotesquely inefficient.

Does a cardio-pulmonary clinic have an $8 Million 12-story parking garage? Nope. So the clinic doesn't have to charge you for that, but the hospital does.

Does the clinic have lighting at sufficient candle-foot rating in the parking garage to avoid civil liability? Nope. A clinic doesn't have a parking garage, so it doesn't have to worry about liability or pay for the electricity, but a hospital does.

Does the clinic have security guards patrolling the garage to reduce the possibility that a patient will be raped or robbed in the parking garage? Nope. But hospitals do, and those security guards don't work for free, and you pay for that.

Does the clinic have video monitoring in the parking garage to further limit their legal liability and reduce the possibility of rapes or robberies? Nope. But hospitals do, and you pay for the installation, maintenance and upkeep of the video system.

And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

A cardio-pulmonary clinic doesn't have a psych ward, or an orthopedics, pediatrics, gerontology, internal medicine, neurology or any other departments, and because they don't, their operating costs are far less than a hospital's ever could be.

That's why Euro-States have gotten rid of hospitals.

Yes, you'll find hospitals in rural areas in Germany. Yes, Germany has rural areas, mostly in the north, but in the south, too.

There are a few big cities in the north. Hamburg, Bremen, Cuxhaven and Bremerhaven. Those are all port cities on the North Sea, or the River Weser. The area in-between is all farmland. Very rural. Villages with a few hundred here and there, and small towns with a few thousand here and there. County hospitals with consolidated facilities make sense.

If women in the US went to a maternity clinic, instead of a hospital, they'd only be billed a couple $1,000 instead of $12,000 to $20,000.

That's why there are private kidney dialysis clinics. To receive dialysis in a hospital was extremely costly, so some very smart people got investors together, purchased their own dialysis machines, and rented a suitable facility to provide the treatment. It costs a helluva lot less than in a hospital.
Regina Herzlinger in her book "Who Killed Health Care?" said many similar things about hospitals (and lots of other bloat and waste in the health care industry) more than a decade ago.

https://www.amazon.com/Who-Killed-He...ed+health+care
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Old 10-01-2018, 04:12 AM
 
50,470 posts, read 36,126,975 times
Reputation: 76349
Quote:
Originally Posted by britinspain View Post
I’ve been reading this thread and have really been touched by some of the posts from people affected by the failure of US health care, regardless of how good anyone thinks the US is the healthcare system sucks and unless you are very fortunate it is third world.

I see that many young people are happy posting how well they are doing in life and that those doing not so well have generally themselves to blame

This confidence we all have when being so young and naive, it is though a little sad seeing that the part of the American dream to fulfill ones own dreams conflicts so strongly with other values held supposedly so high like Equality and Unity, especially where healthcare is concerned.

I left the thread to see what is spent where and how it compares around the world and then posted the below in the healthcare section of C-D

Sorry for repeating myself but I think it belongs in both debates

I’ve just been reading an interesting debate on C-D about the US economy growing with many people commenting how their live have not improved and how many lives have been pretty much broken by the sorry state of health care in the US, with many supposedly middle class people becoming bankrupt or close to it after a few health issues as they are ageing as we all do and the subsequent bills they have had to pay despite them having insurance often paying $700 per month and then having to pay thousands of dollars for anything they need on top.

I really struggle with the whole healcare thing in the US and can’t believe that’s it’s not a higher priority.


I’ve just done a little research online

These actually downplays the differences https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-42950587
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulat...lly/2016-11-01

But still the US government are paying into obamacare and the like to the tune of double that of Europe per gdp for their healthcare but this covers only a small percentage of the US population on a very basic level.

Based on what is being paid in, every American should be fully covered by this contribution with totally no need for any insurance or extra contribution whatsoever for any treatment when needed by any US citizens.

In the words of Trump, it’s a massive con job.
Thank you for writing this. It gets discouraging writing the same things over and over and knowing that so many do not want to understand the issues so many are dealing with (these are not young posters though they are older posters mostly who refuse to see how different the economic landscape is today). I try to tell myself I am not writing to try to change anyone’s mind because I know it won’t happen, but perhaps others whose minds are not quite so entrenched in ideology. So thanks for letting us know you’re out there and listening.

Last edited by ocnjgirl; 10-01-2018 at 04:30 AM..
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Old 10-01-2018, 05:28 AM
 
106,238 posts, read 108,237,907 times
Reputation: 79776
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2sleepy View Post
Right Mircea, seniors should just pack up, leave their friends and families and move to Mississippi. You have the best ideas
that is not what he is saying . the point is there is always cheaper places to live. we all choose not to change our location and lifestyle to some of those places for all sorts of reasons ..
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