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Old 09-27-2018, 03:02 PM
 
Location: NJ
22,670 posts, read 28,559,598 times
Reputation: 14611

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Quote:
Originally Posted by gizmo980 View Post
Good. Everyone should have the right to ask for a working wage, especially when their job requires higher education and dealing with issues most people can't imagine.

And like the others have said, whether or not they earn "too much" really depends on the local COL. I'm in the Bay Area, where a $50,000 salary would literally qualify you for low-income housing and energy credits... so here, no, it's definitely NOT too much for a professional job. I'd say $100K is plenty, though, considering I make a bit less than that doing something that requires an even higher level of education (and typically pays more than teaching).
im not really interested in determining what is or isnt fair for the teachers. i dont think it has to to with COL unless someone cant be expected to commute from a less expensive area. what it really has to do is what it takes to fill the position with a qualified candidate. if you have tons of applications and a waiting list full of qualified candidate, then your compensation is probably too generous.

also, any benefits that arent paid until a future date (like retirement) need to go away. replace any pensions with 401k type plans and no retiree health benefits. just give them the cash in today's money and let them decide what to do with it.
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Old 09-27-2018, 03:32 PM
 
Location: Ohio
17,998 posts, read 13,238,246 times
Reputation: 13776
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertpasa View Post
One of the teachers profiled is being paid over $100,000 per year. Is that really not enough? Even with a rent and a kid that might be enough.

The teacher shown on the cover is paid about $51,000 per year and has to work two other jobs. I think she has med bills and kids. Am I being silly in saying she shouldn't complain if her salary is that much?
I'm sure Time carefully cherry-picked the teachers they wanted to profile for propaganda reasons and then lied by omission throughout the article.

The Cost-of-Living varies dramatically throughout the US. Your purchasing power is directly related to where you live, and purchasing power is not uniform throughout the US, nor should it be, nor could it ever be for any number of economic and political reasons.

I could blind-fold you and fly you to three homes around the US, each owned by a person earning $32,000, $40,000 and $100,000 annually, and it would be totally impossible for you to determine who made what, because their Standard of Living and Life-Style is exactly identical in every way, shape and form.

The only way you could figure out who makes what is by looking at their bank accounts or tax returns.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robertpasa View Post
The Kentucky teacher actually has one child and has to buy school supplies herself. Likely has med bills.
She's a "martyr." Some people suffer from the "martyr-complex" and would buy school supplies whether they were actually needed or not.

If you need school supplies not provided by the school district, then you should probably alter your style and method of instruction, but then poor quality teachers typically cannot do that.

And then there's the union. Shouldn't the union be coercing the school district into providing the alleged necessary supplies, or providing them in lieu of teachers and school districts?

Textbooks are a myth, too.

The only discipline that requires textbooks is literature. English grammar, English composition, history, government, math, geometry, trigonometry, calculus, chemistry, physics and biological and earth or natural sciences do not require textbooks to teach.

If, as a teacher, your lack of knowledge in your discipline is so poor that you cannot develop your own curriculum, prepare your own lesson plans, and develop material for students, then you need to seriously consider giving your teaching degree back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Caldwell View Post
First year teachers in Oregon qualify for food stamps. If they stick with the same job for a decade or more, they make a living wage. It's part of the strategy to keep teachers from job shopping.
That's a bizarre strategy.

Many school districts follow the philosophy of D Russell Lee, a leader in pedagogy. He basically characterized teachers as apprentice, journeyman and master.

You want to pay a premium for the apprentices, in order to attract the best and brightest.

Once they become a journeyman, you don't want to pay them any more than what they're already getting. Why? To force them to leave and go to another school district, preferably one they're not already teaching in, like suburban to urban, or rural to urban or urban to rural.

Then you want to pay a premium for the masters, the best and brightest with an extraordinary breadth of experience.

Unfortunately, that's difficult because of the stupid system of tenure.

Tenure is usually granted by a school district, instead of more logically granting it by county or State.

Once a teacher is granted tenure by a school district, they're extremely reluctant to leave, because they have to start the tenure track all over anew with a different school district.

D Russell Lee advocated the States granting tenure based on clear concise objective measures, such as years of experience, variety of teaching environments (urban, suburban and rural), additional education and other objective measures.

But, whenever a State starts to consider that, who's right their to block it? Unions.

The AFT and NEA are always right there to block and obstruct and buy the votes of as many State legislators as they can.

Your education system would improve a lot if teachers could move about without fear of losing tenure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MinivanDriver View Post
The real issue? Adjusted for inflation, the amount of money we spend per student has doubled over the past 30 years. Yet teacher's salaries pretty much have remained at the same level.
The amount of money spent on education is irrelevant. Even when adjusting for differences in Cost-of-Living, the majority of foreign States spend far less than the US does per student and get better results.
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Old 09-27-2018, 03:47 PM
 
2,359 posts, read 3,026,727 times
Reputation: 4591
I just want to know what is so special about teachers? I heard a report this morning that the average person is earning less now than they did I believe it was 20 years ago. The current average income for a US worker is $57,230. The average salary for a teacher in the US is $45,622. That average US worker salary includes everyone including the top tier wage earners. Teachers typically have state pension retirement plans as well as 401k. Hardly anyone outside of government has pension plans anymore so you have to take the cost of that into consideration. Does anyone really think that a teacher should make as much as an engineer and still also be able to retire at a set number of years and then get a pension for the rest of their life ? lol
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Old 09-27-2018, 04:13 PM
 
Location: Bay Area, CA
28,166 posts, read 43,452,271 times
Reputation: 18557
Quote:
Originally Posted by dijkstra View Post
I just want to know what is so special about teachers? I heard a report this morning that the average person is earning less now than they did I believe it was 20 years ago. The current average income for a US worker is $57,230. The average salary for a teacher in the US is $45,622. That average US worker salary includes everyone including the top tier wage earners. Teachers typically have state pension retirement plans as well as 401k. Hardly anyone outside of government has pension plans anymore so you have to take the cost of that into consideration. Does anyone really think that a teacher should make as much as an engineer and still also be able to retire at a set number of years and then get a pension for the rest of their life ? lol
Yes, yes I do. In fact, I think our country would have a much brighter future if teachers were paid MORE than engineers and corporate big-wigs. Next question?

(but I guess our priorities are different)
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Old 09-27-2018, 04:22 PM
 
2,359 posts, read 3,026,727 times
Reputation: 4591
Quote:
Originally Posted by gizmo980 View Post
Yes, yes I do. In fact, I think our country would have a much brighter future if teachers were paid MORE than engineers and corporate big-wigs. Next question?

(but I guess our priorities are different)

I don't have a question but I completely disagree. I seriously doubt that 10% of teachers could pass the math and engineering courses I took to get my degree and I graduated with honors. On the flip side of that, I could have taken education classes and probably hardly ever cracked a book open. All of those liberal arts classes were a breeze and we all cruised right through them being used to the classes in our major and math minor. I personally think that the difficulty and level of education required for a particular career field should be reflected in the pay scale and as you know the saying goes "Those who can't do, teach."
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Old 09-27-2018, 04:23 PM
 
Location: Bay Area, CA
28,166 posts, read 43,452,271 times
Reputation: 18557
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainNJ View Post
im not really interested in determining what is or isnt fair for the teachers.
Then why are you on a thread discussing JUST THAT?

Quote:
i dont think it has to to with COL unless someone cant be expected to commute from a less expensive area.
As I already mentioned, that isn't an option in every region... find me an "affordable" city within a reasonable commute (~hour or so without traffic) from San Francisco, and I'll send you a dollar. LOL

Quote:
what it really has to do is what it takes to fill the position with a qualified candidate. if you have tons of applications and a waiting list full of qualified candidate, then your compensation is probably too generous.
Do you have any evidence that this is the case? Because I work in the educational field (loosely), and pretty sure that is not the case here. Might differ from state to state, but here in the Bay Area it's hard to find enough qualified teachers - obviously because PAY IS TOO LOW. The only people who can afford to live here on a teacher's salary are those who aren't fully self-supporting, like married/two-income households, or young people still living at home. Do you really want to limit our candidate pools to just them? I don't.

Quote:
also, any benefits that arent paid until a future date (like retirement) need to go away. replace any pensions with 401k type plans and no retiree health benefits. just give them the cash in today's money and let them decide what to do with it.
I'm half with you on this one, since I do like knowing my pension (Calif librarians are usually with CalPERS) is waiting, and safe from things like stock market crashes or personal "dipping." But on the other hand, given my own situation where I have other sources of future money, I could certainly use those funds now! It's a good program, though, as long as it stays reasonable in terms of compensation... and despite what some propaganda-type sources love to claim, for the most part it really is.
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Old 09-27-2018, 04:26 PM
 
Location: Bay Area, CA
28,166 posts, read 43,452,271 times
Reputation: 18557
Quote:
Originally Posted by dijkstra View Post
I don't have a question but I completely disagree. I seriously doubt that 10% of teachers could pass the math and engineering courses I took to get my degree and I graduated with honors. On the flip side of that, I could have taken education classes and probably hardly ever cracked a book open. All of those liberal arts classes were a breeze and we all cruised right through them being used to the classes in our major and math minor. I personally think that the difficulty and level of education required for a particular career field should be reflected in the pay scale and as the saying goes "Those who can't do, teach."
And that happens to be one of the most insulting and false sayings that exists, imo. As someone who has actually taught, I assure you it's even more difficult than simply "doing" - hence why I decided to follow a slightly different career path.

Most teachers do it for the love of bettering our society, not for the money or to impress anyone with their intellectualism. Yet, the teachers I've worked with over the years are usually much more intellectually curious than the engineers I meet... and given where I live (Silicon Valley), you can spit in any direction and hit an engineer. So believe me, I have met MORE than my share! Not saying it's an easy job, but you just demonstrated the condescending egos I see in engineers every single day. Ugh.

P.S. Not every teacher teaches liberal arts. What about math and science teachers? And you do realize most of them have multiple (often post-grad) degrees, right?
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Old 09-27-2018, 06:04 PM
 
2,700 posts, read 3,748,094 times
Reputation: 2867
Time is a Leftist rag. That they lie is a given.
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Old 09-27-2018, 06:20 PM
 
11,694 posts, read 16,443,612 times
Reputation: 16335
Just pull public records, then figure actual hours, fringe benefits, earned benefits, .... in.
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Old 09-27-2018, 07:30 PM
 
Location: NJ
22,670 posts, read 28,559,598 times
Reputation: 14611
Quote:
Originally Posted by gizmo980 View Post
Then why are you on a thread discussing JUST THAT?

As I already mentioned, that isn't an option in every region... find me an "affordable" city within a reasonable commute (~hour or so without traffic) from San Francisco, and I'll send you a dollar. LOL

Do you have any evidence that this is the case? Because I work in the educational field (loosely), and pretty sure that is not the case here. Might differ from state to state, but here in the Bay Area it's hard to find enough qualified teachers - obviously because PAY IS TOO LOW. The only people who can afford to live here on a teacher's salary are those who aren't fully self-supporting, like married/two-income households, or young people still living at home. Do you really want to limit our candidate pools to just them? I don't.

I'm half with you on this one, since I do like knowing my pension (Calif librarians are usually with CalPERS) is waiting, and safe from things like stock market crashes or personal "dipping." But on the other hand, given my own situation where I have other sources of future money, I could certainly use those funds now! It's a good program, though, as long as it stays reasonable in terms of compensation... and despite what some propaganda-type sources love to claim, for the most part it really is.
this thread isnt about deciding what is or isnt a fair compensation for teachers. that was an absolutely silly response. i have an opinion on the subject that is relevant and i will share it. why you decided that we are obligated to decide exactly what is or isnt the right salary is your own silliness. im not going to say "50k isnt enough" or "100k is too much." i think that you let the market decide what is the right amount.

i work in nyc, a place with ridiculously high property values. i see people every day working in nyc for minimum wage. so give me a dollar. these people have reasonable commutes and earn much less than teachers.

evidence of what? im just giving an example of one way that you know if the compensation is too generous. there are thousands of schools all over the country. im sure in some places there are waiting lists and some there arent. you cant just make a blanket statement that will be correct across the board.

it just doesnt make sense to have a compensation plan that isnt paid out of current revenue. its a surefire formula for unfunded obligations in the future. obligations that all the beneficiaries just want taxpayers to be on the hook for. it shouldnt be allowed period.
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