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Old 10-12-2018, 06:00 PM
 
Location: the Permian Basin
4,093 posts, read 2,819,540 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
I don't, I think companies should be worker run democratically since they are the ones who keep the company operating, not the ones who manage the capital.

It's not a matter of what they deserve, it's a matter of what their labor is worth in the market.
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Old 10-12-2018, 06:12 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
6,225 posts, read 1,731,958 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slowpoke_TX View Post
It's not a matter of what they deserve, it's a matter of what their labor is worth in the market.
Market values are distorted by outside influence and lead to the commiditization of human labor for the profit of others.
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Old 10-12-2018, 06:15 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
6,225 posts, read 1,731,958 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuiteLiving View Post
They're free to buy as much stock as they want in any public company. If they work for a private company, they're free to quit and start their own business and take on all the risk that entails.

If none of that is palatable to them, they're free to immigrate to the country that better fits their social, political and economic philosophies.
Production capacities shouldnít be bought and sold like a commodity. The only people who have a right to that capacity are the actually labors as they are the ones who operate the company and they are the ones who should have a say in how it operates.

The system we have today is like people who arenít citizens or residents of our country electing our leaders for us, itís against freedom and individual right to labor.
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Old 10-12-2018, 06:20 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
6,225 posts, read 1,731,958 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thatsright19 View Post
So Winterfall, do you intend to start a company with this grand vision and operate it here? Or are you going to start a different country?

Good luck.
There are plenty of capitalist worker cooperatives out there (Iíd perfer them not to be for profit but that is the global economy we live in).

Evergreen Cooperatives
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kantega

As for myself, Iíd like to start my own cooperative one day providing garden farming and self sustaining housing/water system for people who need it.
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Old 10-12-2018, 06:25 PM
 
Location: the Permian Basin
4,093 posts, read 2,819,540 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
Market values are distorted by outside influence and lead to the commiditization of human labor for the profit of others.

Who exerts "outside influence" upon the labor market for executive leadership?
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Old 10-12-2018, 06:29 PM
 
844 posts, read 358,558 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
Production capacities shouldnít be bought and sold like a commodity. The only people who have a right to that capacity are the actually labors as they are the ones who operate the company and they are the ones who should have a say in how it operates.

The system we have today is like people who arenít citizens or residents of our country electing our leaders for us, itís against freedom and individual right to labor.
This has nothing to do with what I wrote but obviously the purpose of this thread is for you to promote your Bernie Sanders agenda. Have fun with that.
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Old 10-12-2018, 06:36 PM
 
1,130 posts, read 516,401 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuiteLiving View Post
This has nothing to do with what I wrote but obviously the purpose of this thread is for you to promote your Bernie Sanders agenda. Have fun with that.
OP is not promoting a Bernie Sanders agenda. The agenda he's promoting is right out of Das Kapital, with some Engels and Hegelian concepts thrown in for good measure. Sadly, OP doesn't realize that every time any real effort is made to implement Marxist concepts, they fail miserably, often with significant loss of life as the leaders start killing anyone that isn't getting with their program.
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Old 10-12-2018, 06:36 PM
 
Location: Nescopeck, Penna.
11,355 posts, read 6,783,711 times
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The OP is so economically ignorant that he confuses "output" (the goods and services actually produced and sold) with "compensation" (the payments to those who participated in the productive process, and the entrepreneurs who financed that activity). Of course, in the point-and-grunt mindset of the jealous losers to whom the OP seeks to pander, risk deserves no reward.

And despite the rants and distortions of the Leftist parrots, employers don't seek to drive their employees into poverty: what they do usually insist upon, unfortunately, is a reliable supply of interchangeable skillsets; few of us, if any, possess skills strong enough, or unique enough that we can set our own hours, or define and delimit the tasks to which we expect to be specifically assigned, or leave with a full days pay if those skills allow us to finish an assigned task early. One of the traits sought after in an effective manager is the ability to keep his underlings fully occupied, even though the work is far below the subordinate's capability. And as Robert Frost so perfectly expressed it, "Working diligently for eight hours a day will allow you to become a boss, and work diligently for more hours every day."

When you start out in a new career, or a new city, you go to the end of a waiting line. You're usually stuck with menial work, but high turnover in those positions tends to make the first small advances easy, and relatively (though not as much so for older employees, or those given to job-hopping). And the real potential for dirty tricks starts when an employee is lured into the trap known as straight salary. The sole proprietor of a small business and the manager of a small office knows who's encumbered, and who's not.

Labor unions? They usually benefit their members only when those individuals have something to bring to the table, scarce skills, or a very large amount of capital invested per worker; and in the latter instance, these are often industries where a mistake can cause a lot of injury, or worse. So employers tend to make more demands, particularly with regard to safety.

Those are the cold facts of life in a de-industrializing society. nobody's going to starve in an expanding economy where mass-produced goods, as opposed to personal services, continuously become easier to produce, and a "safety net", funded in part by the non-profit sector, continues to expand. Everybody gets by, but getting ahead usually involves regimented participation in a lot of undesirable processes. And civil rights and the emancipation of women serves mostly to increase the supply of interchangeable parts.

Last edited by 2nd trick op; 10-12-2018 at 07:28 PM..
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Old 10-12-2018, 06:44 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
6,225 posts, read 1,731,958 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slowpoke_TX View Post
Who exerts "outside influence" upon the labor market for executive leadership?
The demand and requirement of the output they produce certainly is.

Where in a truly egalitarian society products would be valued purely on their function and not some artificial number that is formed from distortions.

Marketing, product placement, state and international influence all distort the demand of a certain product and the value of the labor someone is committing to. Most companies look for ways to create demand for there product, similarly states and corporations distort commodity prices to influence distribution of capital.

The list goes on, and being as people's work is strictly controlled by owners of the means of production, these distortions have a direct affect on people's freedom of work.
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Old 10-12-2018, 06:45 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
6,225 posts, read 1,731,958 times
Reputation: 2054
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuiteLiving View Post
This has nothing to do with what I wrote but obviously the purpose of this thread is for you to promote your Bernie Sanders agenda. Have fun with that.
Bernie sanders is a social democrat. I am an anarcho-syndicalist.

A socialist in broader terms.
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