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Old 10-16-2018, 09:13 AM
 
440 posts, read 200,672 times
Reputation: 459

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
If you had read the thread, or any of my other posts, you’d know that operation extends beyond presence.

If you are living in a house and that is your primary residency, then you are still living there when you leave for a while.
When you’re growing crops, and you leave the field, the crop yield is still yours as you are still working the land even for the period you stop.
Similarly, a car is still in usage when it’s not being driven, that is your car, that is your tool and means of transportation.
Darn it! I really wanted to drive that car. By the way, I just saw a nice Patek Philippe watch in a shop window. No one is wearing it. I need something to tell time. Are you now telling me I can have that either?

What good is your mythical utopia if I can’t have things the way I want as well?
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Old 10-16-2018, 09:17 AM
 
Location: Manchester NH
6,532 posts, read 1,786,896 times
Reputation: 2079
Quote:
Originally Posted by eliza61nyc View Post
The problem with this argument is that you are assuming the larger world should follow your "natural law" theory.
Freedom of movement has always been limited to some type of "cost" . Hell the only reason the Israelites were able to skiddale out of Egypt was because God hooked them up with Manna. lol, food ain't cheap even in biblical times.

One of the resources needed to sustain an expanding population is, wait for it. money. What you think that if there were no realtors people would just magically be able to move into NYC.

What are resources in modern day? food, electricity?

The "natural law" theory has always worked best "in theory". lol no one has been able to do much with it in reality.
It does work in reality (as shown multiple times) because the external affects of over cost land and resourcee rationing are based in the for profit system that is upheld by the state.

People may still want to be exploitive but they are limited by their own natural abilities. Without state protection how could they charge exorbitant prices, or how would they even be able to maintain the land? Furthermore the nature of population migration would change being as people wouldn’t move around based on price or job opportunities as wealth is created by workers, not distributed by corporations.

Today corporate (and state) powers decide which communities prosper with jobs, and which don’t. In a cooperative system, workers are free to create their own wealth given the capital available to them without the need to structure production around profit.

When power structures are horizontal rather than top down you see the same level of connectedness as today but you don’t see concentrations of power that are able to relegate movement or produce vastly unequal living spaces. Even in accordance to population control, city councils, housing unions etc. would and could only build that which they have the resources to sustain, the need to price people out of one area has little actual affect on population control.
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Old 10-16-2018, 09:21 AM
 
Location: Manchester NH
6,532 posts, read 1,786,896 times
Reputation: 2079
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim1921 View Post
Darn it! I really wanted to drive that car. By the way, I just saw a nice Patek Philippe watch in a shop window. No one is wearing it. I need something to tell time. Are you now telling me I can have that either?

What good is your mythical utopia if I can have things the way I want as well?
It’s a very real system that has and will be achieved again. Distribution of goods should be free in most cases, but specialized watches may have a charge.
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Old 10-16-2018, 09:24 AM
 
Location: Manchester NH
6,532 posts, read 1,786,896 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thatsright19 View Post
You have one of the most misguided “understandings” of economics I’ve ever seen on these forums, which is quite an impressive feat.
No, but years of education that teaches the importance of maintaining corporate rule of society leads people to believe they need that structure to maintain function.

When value is based on function and not pricing or rarity, the entire economic system of private control will dissipate. Freedom is just not something Americans are allowed to think about.
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Old 10-16-2018, 09:34 AM
 
Location: Manchester NH
6,532 posts, read 1,786,896 times
Reputation: 2079
Quote:
Originally Posted by eliza61nyc View Post
Amen but it's not really any economic principle at all, it's more of a philosophical theory and as with most philosophical theories, they work well in discussions and on paper. They RARELY work in real life and most do not transfer well to economics.
Not only does different forms of libertarian/anarchist socialism work, it is the only system that allows sustainability.

You can look at area the state and the private industry have left, the cooperative community run system is taking charge allowing people to create their own wealth outside of for profit demands.

Of course they’re still tied down by a capitalist work structure, but between electric cooperatives that provide a community good own by the community, to credit union banks, to actual worker cooperatives in Evergreen, these institutions are saving people from the failed authoritarian system you call capitalism.

We’re these ‘theories’ only real on paper:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zapa...nal_Liberation
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demo...Northern_Syria
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kore...n_in_Manchuria
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Catalonia

I could keep going, this ‘theory’ as you call it exists all around us.
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Old 10-16-2018, 09:36 AM
 
Location: Manchester NH
6,532 posts, read 1,786,896 times
Reputation: 2079
Quote:
Originally Posted by eliza61nyc View Post
Now onto the original question of whether or not executives deserve the majority of the company's output? No but I don't know any executives of publicly owned companies where that happens and I only read the first few pages of your argument which don't really stand up.

privately owned companies? the golden rule applies: He who owns the gold (company) rules. Jeff Bezoz founded Amazon. He employs as free will, meaning all employees have the right to either accept or reject the offer of employment. no one is forcing them, they are not slaves.

My company, my blood sweat and tears. again I force no one to work for me. they willingly accept the salary. Mine is more. Mine will always be more.
Yours is what you operate. Extending your own suffering (blood sweat and tears) does not justify ownership of capital that is being operated by others.
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Old 10-16-2018, 09:55 AM
 
398 posts, read 246,697 times
Reputation: 1471
Winterfall8324, do you lock your house (apartment, duplex, teepee, whatever) when you are not there? I'd like to use it if I ever visit New Hampshire. I need your address. Also, leave your bicycle, I may need transportation.

Thanks, Rg
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Old 10-16-2018, 10:32 AM
 
Location: Philadelphia/South Jersey area
2,318 posts, read 1,056,293 times
Reputation: 7687
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
Yours is what you operate. Extending your own suffering (blood sweat and tears) does not justify ownership of capital that is being operated by others.
of course it does. it is being operated by others because they are getting paid for it. the capital they own is their bodies, their manual labor. every thing else I own. where did the material they are working come from? did it fall out of the sky? did they invent it? nope.

this is the dumbest darn theory since Jesus was a boy. Now I don't own their bodies or the effort to operate the machinery. I pay resources in the form of money and health care.
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Old 10-16-2018, 10:35 AM
 
Location: Philadelphia/South Jersey area
2,318 posts, read 1,056,293 times
Reputation: 7687
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
Not only does different forms of libertarian/anarchist socialism work, it is the only system that allows sustainability.

You can look at area the state and the private industry have left, the cooperative community run system is taking charge allowing people to create their own wealth outside of for profit demands.

Of course they’re still tied down by a capitalist work structure, but between electric cooperatives that provide a community good own by the community, to credit union banks, to actual worker cooperatives in Evergreen, these institutions are saving people from the failed authoritarian system you call capitalism.

We’re these ‘theories’ only real on paper:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zapa...nal_Liberation
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demo...Northern_Syria
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kore...n_in_Manchuria
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Catalonia

I could keep going, this ‘theory’ as you call it exists all around us.
OMG you would cite, paramilitary groups as success stories? are you insane? oh and 3/4 are listed as "was" as in now defunct.

no they don't "exists" all around us. they attempt to over throw the governments and they cause bloodshed, political and social upheaval and not one leads to any type of advancement as a race.

ok I'm out. any time anyone looks up to paramilitary war machines as "success" has some serious issues.

I'll take capitalism and door number one Alex for the win.
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Old 10-16-2018, 11:32 AM
 
Location: Manchester NH
6,532 posts, read 1,786,896 times
Reputation: 2079
Quote:
Originally Posted by eliza61nyc View Post
OMG you would cite, paramilitary groups as success stories? are you insane? oh and 3/4 are listed as "was" as in now defunct.

no they don't "exists" all around us. they attempt to over throw the governments and they cause bloodshed, political and social upheaval and not one leads to any type of advancement as a race.

ok I'm out. any time anyone looks up to paramilitary war machines as "success" has some serious issues.

I'll take capitalism and door number one Alex for the win.
It's obvious you don't care to read the links beyond the first paragraph.

the 1/2 (not third) that are still in existence are self sustaining societies that provide for themselves after being destroyed by government forces.

The Zapatistas for example have no intention of overthrowing the government, they just want to be left alone. The government can't allow that so they burn their crop fields are terrorize their citizens.

The second area of discussion is one that is based in international support. The zapatistas don't survive thanks to their own defensive capabilities, they do so by garnering international to support so that any direct invasion would be a political nightmare for the Mexican government.

You forget that today, the Zapatistas are attempting to deescalate tensions while the Mexican government (who has no interest in peace) is doing the exact opposite.

Again what you seem to not understand is the Zapatista have their own society that is constantly improving. They don't need state investments nor do they plan to conquer the government, they already have what they want, now they want to be left alone so that they can trade and grow their own local economy.
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