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Old 10-12-2018, 06:48 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
6,225 posts, read 1,731,958 times
Reputation: 2054

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Quote:
Originally Posted by WRM20 View Post
OP is not promoting a Bernie Sanders agenda. The agenda he's promoting is right out of Das Kapital, with some Engels and Hegelian concepts thrown in for good measure. Sadly, OP doesn't realize that every time any real effort is made to implement Marxist concepts, they fail miserably, often with significant loss of life as the leaders start killing anyone that isn't getting with their program.
Marx was a good socialist, but he had the wrong ideas in terms of implementation.

For successful socialist implementations you'd only have to look at places like revolutionary Catalonia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Catalonia

or the free territories.

More recently, for 20 years and going, the zapatistas have built a successful socialist society built on personal ownership and cooperation that has succeed to life up all the oppressed indigenous people in southern Mexico.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zapati...nal_Liberation
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Old 10-12-2018, 06:52 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
6,225 posts, read 1,731,958 times
Reputation: 2054
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd trick op View Post
The OP is so economically ignorant that he confuses "output" (the goods and services actually produced and sold) with "compensation" (the payments to those who participated in the productive process, and the entrepreneurs who financed that activity). Of course, in the point-and-grunt mindset of the jealous losers to whom the OP seeks to pander, risk deserves no reward.

And despite the rants and distortions of the Leftist parrots, employers don't seek to drive their employees into poverty: what they do usually insist upon, unfortunately, is a reliable supply of interchangeable skillsets,
I know the difference, and compensation is artificially rewarded compared to actual output.

There are two factors at play, the strict control of labor, and the centralized distribution of compensation.

If labor was freed from market (read: external) control and authoritarian corporations, people would produce more freely and be able to receive the direct benefits of their output instead of some centralized currency system.
Remember, function is the basis of value, not pricing or rarity, or any other artificial mechanics.

In the current capitalist framework though, the best situation is for allowing workers to decide on wages themselves democratically and creating their own production focuses (as to meet the needs of its workers).
You can look at evergreen for this.
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Old 10-12-2018, 06:53 PM
 
844 posts, read 358,558 times
Reputation: 875
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
Marx was a good socialist, but he had the wrong ideas in terms of implementation.

For successful socialist implementations you'd only have to look at places like revolutionary Catalonia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Catalonia

or the free territories.

More recently, for 20 years and going, the zapatistas have built a successful socialist society built on personal ownership and cooperation that has succeed to life up all the oppressed indigenous people in southern Mexico.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zapati...nal_Liberation
They both sound like you’ll be very happy there. Have a nice life.
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Old 10-12-2018, 07:08 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
6,225 posts, read 1,731,958 times
Reputation: 2054
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuiteLiving View Post
They both sound like you’ll be very happy there. Have a nice life.
Revolutionary Catalonia was destroyed by an alliance of the fascists, republicans, and Stalinist forces in 1939.

As for the zapitistas, they are geared towards the indigenous Mexican community, something I'm not.

What I'd wish for is a global socialist world where larger economies can't destroy smaller socialist ones through sanctions and keeping them out of the global supply chain. Right now most communal living areas are poor because they don't have international trade as they don't operate by the (authoritarian) principles of capitalism.

What I can do in the meanwhile is support worker cooperatives (many of which exist in this country, especially in red states), start my own, help pass socialist policy, and work to change the country I live in.

I'm rooted here and the only thing I can do is support the only voluntary system that allows for actual freedom, not the decentralized authoritarian model we have today where all the means of production are privately owned and labor is organized for the benefit of a few individuals.

In the future I hope syndicates of different unions can form to represent the needs of the workers and society, not the needs of a few authoritarian leaders. Input=Output.

Last edited by Winterfall8324; 10-12-2018 at 07:30 PM..
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Old 10-12-2018, 07:16 PM
 
844 posts, read 358,558 times
Reputation: 875
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
What I'd wish for is a global socialist world where larger economies can destroy smaller socialist ones through sanctions and keeping them out of the global supply chain. Right now most communal living areas are poor because they don't have international trade as they don't operate by the (authoritarian) principles of capitalism.
Faith, trust & pixie dust
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Old 10-12-2018, 07:34 PM
 
Location: Paranoid State
12,671 posts, read 9,420,097 times
Reputation: 14916
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
I don't, I think companies should be worker run democratically since they are the ones who keep the company operating, not the ones who manage the capital.
I agree. Let's take all your personal savings and that of all of your family and start a company where other people get to vote on how to manage the capital.

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Old 10-12-2018, 07:34 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
6,225 posts, read 1,731,958 times
Reputation: 2054
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuiteLiving View Post
Faith, trust & pixie dust
It is the only way to achieve real freedom and keep the planet from being destroyed due to excess production and waste.

Read Mutual Aid: A Factor of Evolution. Socialism is all around us and was there in the formation and evolution of the human race.

You can see it in none hierarchical animal civilizations where being work voluntarily for self benefit. It is the same model that exists in localities, far out villages, and places the private and state powers haven't been able to dominate.

The most significant factor is cooperatively owned power lines, credit union banks (not for profit) and other institutions the deliver base needs controlled by the costumers/workers.

It is a model that is spreading and could soon tern the need for predatory private corporations to 0.
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Old 10-12-2018, 07:39 PM
 
2,240 posts, read 1,385,700 times
Reputation: 4894
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRM20 View Post
OP is not promoting a Bernie Sanders agenda. The agenda he's promoting is right out of Das Kapital, with some Engels and Hegelian concepts thrown in for good measure. Sadly, OP doesn't realize that every time any real effort is made to implement Marxist concepts, they fail miserably, often with significant loss of life as the leaders start killing anyone that isn't getting with their program.
Ahhh yes. Sounds like paradise.

Meanwhile the OP talks about how the current system stifles freedom and individual rights of workers. Up is down and down is up.

Classic. This thread is a great reminder of why society needs to be educated enough to protect our republic lest it be swept into the dust bin of history if we allow madness like this thread to take root.
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Old 10-12-2018, 07:39 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
6,225 posts, read 1,731,958 times
Reputation: 2054
Quote:
Originally Posted by SportyandMisty View Post
I agree. Let's take all your personal savings and that of all of your family and start a company where other people get to vote on how to manage the capital.

That's actual what you support. You support outside forces controlling the labor of the workers through stock buy outs.

What I support is the people physically operating the company (not through artificial pay rolls that are given function by the state).

If I start a company, great. If I have 10 people working for me who do the majority of the work, they are as much owners of it as I am. That is how you achieve a society where 1% of the population doesn't control more wealth than the bottom 50%. I society based on freedom of production where the differences in outcome are limited by your own physical ability. People like you believe in a system where one CEO can make 100x more than an average worker despite producing nothing.

Employee owned companies are everywhere and are expanding voluntarily: https://community-wealth.org/content...mmunity-wealth
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Old 10-12-2018, 07:41 PM
 
2,240 posts, read 1,385,700 times
Reputation: 4894
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
It is the only way to achieve real freedom and keep the planet from being destroyed due to excess production and waste.

Read Mutual Aid: A Factor of Evolution. Socialism is all around us and was there in the formation and evolution of the human race.

You can see it in none hierarchical animal civilizations where being work voluntarily for self benefit. It is the same model that exists in localities, far out villages, and places the private and state powers haven't been able to dominate.

The most significant factor is cooperatively owned power lines, credit union banks (not for profit) and other institutions the deliver base needs controlled by the costumers/workers.

It is a model that is spreading and could soon tern the need for predatory private corporations to 0.
Any time someone says there’s only one way to do something, you know they’re about to spew a pitch not in your best interest. When the only way happens to be their way....well...
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