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Old 10-12-2018, 03:46 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
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I don't, I think companies should be worker run democratically since they are the ones who keep the company operating, not the ones who manage the capital.
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Old 10-12-2018, 04:17 PM
 
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Uh oh, i see where this thread will go....

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Old 10-12-2018, 04:22 PM
 
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Executives don’t get the majority of the company output.

Since the premise of your thread is false, and you offered nothing of substance, there’s not much to discuss. Perhaps you could look at research from the million studies and papers written on this in business schools around the country and the world?

Also, why do you...an outsider...think you get to tell the owners that they can’t manage their company as they see fit...and that it’s the workers who should be in charge?
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Old 10-12-2018, 04:44 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
6,225 posts, read 1,726,791 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thatsright19 View Post
Executives don’t get the majority of the company output.

Since the premise of your thread is false, and you offered nothing of substance, there’s not much to discuss. Perhaps you could look at research from the million studies and papers written on this in business schools around the country and the world?

Also, why do you...an outsider...think you get to tell the owners that they can’t manage their company as they see fit...and that it’s the workers who should be in charge?
Yes, they do get the majority of the capital output as they own it all. They may choose to distribute it down to worker as they see fit, but they still control the output the workers produce.

As for the second part of your question, that enters the realm of personal property and natural law. You could ask the same think of an authoritarian king, what claim he has to leadership of a nation when the people are the ones who make up that nation. Democracy was implemented for that same reason.

Same with production, just because someone has a legal claim on the means of production protected by the state doesn't mean they have natural claims on it as the majority of the output is created by the workers (even if the executives give the order). That is why I believe similar to our political institutions, are economic ones should be democratic.

It will also have the great affect of equalizing wealth distribution without the need of welfare or government taxes. Input=output.

You can look at evergreen or Mondragon as examples of capitalist companies that follow this model.
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Old 10-12-2018, 04:53 PM
 
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The executives don’t own the output. They’re management. Not owners. This may be a revelation to you, but the employees are free to buy the companies stock and be an owner and share in profits. Millions of people do this every day with their stock portfolio. The only time the executives own the output is when they too get stock compensation or buy stock.

The rest of your post is nonsense. I disagree at the most basic level that the wealth distribution needs to be “equalized”. Who are you to decide what this equality is? Why should it be split “equally”? You can believe that output should be split democratically all day. It’s not happening. You can start your own company and try to manage it that way. Imagine that. Property rights.

Property rights is what this country and many other successful British colonies were built on.

Oh and the market does set the rate for different occupations based in the value they create and the demand for those services. It does it better than any one person’s idea of “equal”
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Old 10-12-2018, 05:10 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
Yes, they do get the majority of the capital output as they own it all. They may choose to distribute it down to worker as they see fit, but they still control the output the workers produce.
Competing statements. Executives control the output through budgeting and capital allocation plans that are approved by the board of directors. The board of directors are individuals elected by shareholders. We'll leave out the Googles and other companies where the founders control the companies. So the shareholders, who are the owners, own and control the output.
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Old 10-12-2018, 05:22 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
6,225 posts, read 1,726,791 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thatsright19 View Post
The executives don’t own the output. They’re management. Not owners. This may be a revelation to you, but the employees are free to buy the companies stock and be an owner and share in profits. Millions of people do this every day with their stock portfolio. The only time the executives own the output is when they too get stock compensation or buy stock.

The rest of your post is nonsense. I disagree at the most basic level that the wealth distribution needs to be “equalized”. Who are you to decide what this equality is? Why should it be split “equally”? You can believe that output should be split democratically all day. It’s not happening. You can start your own company and try to manage it that way. Imagine that. Property rights.

Property rights is what this country and many other successful British colonies were built on.

Oh and the market does set the rate for different occupations based in the value they create and the demand for those services. It does it better than any one person’s idea of “equal”
So many falsehoods here, it'll be difficult to go through all of them.

The board of executives do control the company, and the executives manage the capital even if they themselves don't produce it.

In terms of equalization, not everyone will get the same thing, but they will get as much as they put in. Naturally capital distribution would be equalized because people are limited by their own physical capabilities. The differences one person makes compared to another would therefore be much smaller.

Look at companies today, executives get paid far more than the average worker despite not producing more than the disparity shows. Furthermore all workers would have equal ownership in the company and therefore equal say in how production is utilized and managed giving them more freedom of labor.

Ownership as far as natural law is concerned is of those who operate something, not those who have a piece of paper claiming it as theirs. The labor of an individual shouldn't be for sale for random stock holders to buy and trade as that turns human (individual) labor into a commodity. The only people with shares in a company should be the actual workers who operate that company.
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Old 10-12-2018, 05:25 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
6,225 posts, read 1,726,791 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuiteLiving View Post
Competing statements. Executives control the output through budgeting and capital allocation plans that are approved by the board of directors. The board of directors are individuals elected by shareholders. We'll leave out the Googles and other companies where the founders control the companies. So the shareholders, who are the owners, own and control the output.
And the shareholders should be the workers as they are the ones who operate the company. Directors, managers, and outside owners have no right to commoditize an individuals labor as that deprives them of their natural right to ownership of their own work.

It's as if a political institution was controlled by people outside of the nation. The nation is made up of its citizens and they control the direction of that country. Similarly, production is made up of the workers, and they have democratic rights over the usage and fair distribution of that production, not buyers and sellers given legal privilege by the state.
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Old 10-12-2018, 05:32 PM
 
844 posts, read 358,558 times
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Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
And the shareholders should be the workers
They're free to buy as much stock as they want in any public company. If they work for a private company, they're free to quit and start their own business and take on all the risk that entails.

If none of that is palatable to them, they're free to immigrate to the country that better fits their social, political and economic philosophies.
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Old 10-12-2018, 05:36 PM
 
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So Winterfall, do you intend to start a company with this grand vision and operate it here? Or are you going to start a different country?

Good luck.
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