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Old 11-16-2018, 04:44 PM
 
Location: Washington state
4,738 posts, read 2,349,004 times
Reputation: 13872

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Quote:
Originally Posted by lieqiang View Post
You're really going to imply you know enough about the living expenses of everyone to state that nobody can live on $15/hour? Pfft.


So let me get this straight.

1. You tried to claim there are jobs everywhere but hard to find ones that make over min wage
2. It's pointed out to you that the 97.7% of of hourly jobs make over min wage

You are now saying that item#2 above proved your point, which was item #1. That's a leap of logic that could easily go over the moon.

People answering to a survey with something as nebulously defined as "some sort of hardship" isn't something that can be used to prove a certain wage threshold is starvation wages.

Real wages having the same purchasing power as 40 years ago isn't something that can be used to prove a certain wage threshold is starvation wages.
$15/hr on 40 or more hours a week isn't that bad of a wage. IF people are working 40 hours a week. Many people aren't. And IF they're making $15/hr. Just because you hear about how large cities like Seattle are paying $15/hr doesn't mean all the small towns in the Midwest are.

And where have been lately, in a cloister? The fastest growing jobs today are in the service sectors., i.e., the lowest paying sector. Not everyone is making enough to pull themselves out of poverty and certainly not everyone is making $15 an hour.

Real wages are certainly real when compared to what the cost of housing is and was. You can't talk about one without the other.

The cost of living is rising and many Americans can't afford it

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other...-it/ar-BBPElEa

"The survey found that renters in these 13 states are spending more than 50 percent of their income on necessities: Delaware, New Mexico, Tennessee, Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, West Virginia, Mine, North Dakota, Alabama, Florida, North Carolina, Kentucky."

Are you trying to tell me ALL of the people in all these states are in some conspiracy to make everyone think the economy isn't paying well?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grlzrl View Post
Are you saying that the above family is paying the $33k in healthcare? Because I assure you, they are not paying ANYTHING. The taxpayers are paying for that. Same for the schools. They are being subsidized in many ways whether it's free and reduced meals, Section 8 housing, etc. Each household DOES NOT pay for government. Low income people get money back.

Did I miss your point?
I think you misunderstand how poor you have to be to qualify for any kind of assistance. A lot of people do that. They think you're making $10 an hour and raking in government benefits. Boy, do I have news for you. Unless you're scamming the system, you need to be dirt poor - and I do mean dirt poor - to get full benefits. That is, no job, no income, and many times no assets. It's a given that the people working at Social Services know that anyone able to "make it" on benefits is not receiving benefits alone or is pulling in money from somewhere else.

Low income people do NOT get money back. As someone who is getting $15,000 a year right now, I can assure you that if I were not on disability and Medicare, I wouldn't be able to afford health care and it would not be free from the government. I still don't have eye care and dental coverage.

Does anyone here really understand what poverty means? It isn't cutting down on take out or shopping at a thrift store. It's turning the heat completely off at night to save on utility bills even in freezing weather, it's not shopping for clothes at all until the old ones are rags, it's not being able to buy glasses for your kid who can't see the board at school because of the cost, it's going without diabetes medications, high blood pressure medications, hernia operations, etc, because the cost of health insurance is too high. It's living in cars and motels and staying with friends. It's making tomato soup out of McDonald's ketchup packets. Sometimes it's not going to a job because there's no transportation there, or shoes to wear. That's the poverty we're talking about.

You all think no one lives like this. You think these people only make up a very tiny percentage of the US population. Let me ask you, who exactly do you think are the people who are paying over 50% of their wages for necessities like housing? Who do you think they're talking about when school buses have to be rerouted to motels to pick up the kids for school?

You guys think the whole US is one large middle class group with a few rich people and poor people at both ends. If you actually think that, you're one of the lucky ones, because you can't see that the majority of the middle class is pretty much hanging on a thread and there are a whole lot more people living in real poverty than you think.
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Old 11-16-2018, 04:49 PM
 
9,119 posts, read 2,523,047 times
Reputation: 8451
I can't understand why many don't get it when it comes to costs per person!

These are often the same people who yell "Socialism is other people's money"......

Health Care is 11K per person per year. Period. It's not like millions are paying 50K per year and that makes up for those only paying 2K. It's 11K per person per year and....2/3 of that is paid by the Government - ALL of it from debt and deficit.

Period.

There may be a little truism in that the family with two kids in school doesn't pay the full 22K because the next door neighbor has no kids. But think about it - how many "no kids" houses would there have to be to pay the extra 20K or so that the 2 or 3 child family needs to finance them?

These are the very basics and why we are unlikely to EVER face our problems. Our system insulates us individually from them - they simply get charged to our grandkids. Or, they are the reason 20% have to live in poverty.

The biggest question in terms of this thread is:
Does a "living wage" mean one is paying for their part in our society?

An interesting question since the current admin is busy giving away trillions of dollars from our kids and grandkids....to the wealthiest among us and to corporations.

It would be one thing if we were paying our way AND had some giant surplus. But neither is true - nor will they likely ever be true. Greed is Good is baked into our system....

Maybe we should reclassify as a "sustainable wage". But since the rich and corporations are getting Trillions in free money, asking other people to pay their way is not really an option.
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Old 11-16-2018, 05:06 PM
 
65,247 posts, read 66,717,619 times
Reputation: 43702
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri View Post
I can't understand why many don't get it when it comes to costs per person!

Health Care is 11K per person per year. Period. It's not like millions are paying 50K per year and that makes up for those only paying 2K. It's 11K per person per year and....2/3 of that is paid by the Government - ALL of it from debt and deficit.

Period.




.
i guess you don't know how it works either .

the above is not correct . the premiums for medicare are tiered by taxable income . the highest earners pay 80% of the cost of medicare with the gov't covering just 20% .

some brackets pay 50% of the cost .

others are 65% and others still are 35%

only the lowest income brackets pay 25% with the gov't kicking in 2/3's .



.
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Old 11-16-2018, 06:44 PM
 
4,898 posts, read 2,334,083 times
Reputation: 9060
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodentraiser View Post
$15/hr on 40 or more hours a week isn't that bad of a wage. IF people are working 40 hours a week. Many people aren't. And IF they're making $15/hr. Just because you hear about how large cities like Seattle are paying $15/hr doesn't mean all the small towns in the Midwest are.
Well hey you've moved the goal posts again. You've gone from saying most jobs are min wage, to saying $15/hour is starvation wages, to your latest position that $15/hour isn't always full time and some small towns in the Midwest pay less. Let's restate what you originally said that I took issue with, you know the thing you're now about 10,000 miles away from since it was so ridiculous:

rodentraiser = "There's jobs-a-plenty anywhere you go in the US right now. What people are looking for is a job that pays over minimum wage."

Only 2.3% of jobs pay minimum wage.



Quote:
Originally Posted by rodentraiser View Post
And where have been lately, in a cloister? The fastest growing jobs today are in the service sectors., i.e., the lowest paying sector. Not everyone is making enough to pull themselves out of poverty and certainly not everyone is making $15 an hour.
I never made an argument that everyone is making enough to pull themselves out of poverty, nor did I say everyone is making $15/hour. I was skeptical of your claim that:
1. It's hard to find a job over minimum wage
2. $15/hour is starvation wages
3. People need to make $20/hour to cover expenses
4. Real wages being stagnant supports item #2 or #3 above

I guess none of that matters since it appears you've moved on to argue against some mysterious person (we'll call him Mr. Strawman, or perhaps Ms. VoicesInHead) who was saying everyone is making enough to pull themselves out of poverty and making more than $15/hour. I must have missed the post where someone said that, but good luck with what sounds like a very rich discussion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rodentraiser View Post
Real wages are certainly real when compared to what the cost of housing is and was. You can't talk about one without the other.

The cost of living is rising and many Americans can't afford it

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other...-it/ar-BBPElEa

"The survey found that renters in these 13 states are spending more than 50 percent of their income on necessities: Delaware, New Mexico, Tennessee, Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, West Virginia, Mine, North Dakota, Alabama, Florida, North Carolina, Kentucky."

Are you trying to tell me ALL of the people in all these states are in some conspiracy to make everyone think the economy isn't paying well?
No, I wasn't trying to tell you that there are no states where renters more than 50 percent of their income on necessities. If you think that backs up your claims about starvation wages, $20/hour needed to cover expenses, or min wage jobs being hard to find you're mistaken.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rodentraiser View Post
the majority of the middle class is pretty much hanging on a thread and there are a whole lot more people living in real poverty than you think.
The metric "hanging on a thread" is obviously open to interpretation but I'm pretty comfortable labeling that as bullocks when applied to the majority of the middle class. You also have no idea what my perceptions are about how many people are living in real poverty, calling you on BS about people needing $20/hour to survive is completely different that denying the existence of poverty.

Last edited by lieqiang; 11-16-2018 at 07:23 PM..
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Old 11-16-2018, 07:21 PM
 
4,898 posts, read 2,334,083 times
Reputation: 9060
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri View Post
I can't understand why many don't get it when it comes to costs per person!

These are often the same people who yell "Socialism is other people's money"......

Health Care is 11K per person per year. Period. It's not like millions are paying 50K per year and that makes up for those only paying 2K. It's 11K per person per year and....2/3 of that is paid by the Government - ALL of it from debt and deficit.

Period.
Costs being 11k per person is different than actual out of pocket costs. When you're using the 11k and applying it to a budget of an actual low income family it's nonsensical because that money does not come out of their pockets. If you want to talk about spending on healthcare in US as a whole and sustainability of that very income and debts that's fine, but acting like a family of 3 making $40k is going to be spending $33k out of their budget to pay for healthcare indicates a very poor grasp of spending and budgeting for a typical household.


Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri View Post
There may be a little truism in that the family with two kids in school doesn't pay the full 22K because the next door neighbor has no kids. But think about it - how many "no kids" houses would there have to be to pay the extra 20K or so that the 2 or 3 child family needs to finance them?
Schools aren't paid for just with property taxes. For example in California property taxes are only 22% of schools' funding source:






Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri View Post
The biggest question in terms of this thread is:
Does a "living wage" mean one is paying for their part in our society?
That's an irrelevant question unless you're assuming (or advocating) everyone in society earns just a living wage. We as a society can function perfectly fine with low income people paying taxes at a rate that isn't self-sustaining. It's not some simplistic Miss America question/answer session solution, companies can't just raise the wages of lower end workers to generate more payroll income and solve our problem of deficit spending since they would need to either fire workers, lower wages on other workers, or go out of business.
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Old 11-17-2018, 05:44 PM
 
Location: Ohio
18,197 posts, read 13,363,334 times
Reputation: 14076
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri View Post
I can't understand why many don't get it when it comes to costs per person!
You're the one who doesn't get it.

For some people, healthcare costs $0 per year, while for others it's $1 Million per year.

It just averages out to $11,000 per person.

Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri View Post
Health Care is 11K per person per year. Period.
Again, you don't understand the meaning of "average."

In the US, about 8.5% to 11.2% of that $11,000 is spent during the last 12 months of a person's life.

So, on the high end that would be about $1,232 and $935 on the low end.

Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri View Post
The biggest question in terms of this thread is:

Does a "living wage" mean one is paying for their part in our society?
Define "living wage" objectively in no uncertain terms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rodentraiser View Post
$15/hr on 40 or more hours a week isn't that bad of a wage.
That depends on where you live. You can move any time you want, you just have to want to do it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rodentraiser View Post
Real wages are certainly real when compared to what the cost of housing is and was. You can't talk about one without the other.


The cost of living is rising and many Americans can't afford it

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other...-it/ar-BBPElEa

"The survey found that renters in these 13 states are spending more than 50 percent of their income on necessities: Delaware, New Mexico, Tennessee, Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, West Virginia, Mine, North Dakota, Alabama, Florida, North Carolina, Kentucky."

Are you trying to tell me ALL of the people in all these states are in some conspiracy to make everyone think the economy isn't paying well?
The survey is flawed.

This is an objectively false statement:

Cost of Living in U.S. Has Risen 14% Over the Past 3 Years

From October 2015 through October 2018, the Cost-of-Living has only increased 6.31%.

From October 2010 through October 2018 it has risen 15%, and that is based on CPI data.

You claim renters are paying 50% of their income on rent, and that is a false statement, because the survey uses the term "necessities" which it has defined as "rent, groceries, transportation, utilities and healthcare."

50% of your income for rent and groceries, transportation, utilities and healthcare is not a bad deal by any stretch of the imagination.

You ignore the fact that those renters choose, of their own Free Will, to live there.

That's on them. It's not up to you or I to tell them where to live.

It's also subjective.

Americans have a tendency to buy more than what they actually need.

So, do those renters need that amount of square footage, or do they want that amount?

Because "needing" and "wanting" are not the same thing, and if that's what they want, then that's on them.

In Cincinnati, a 2-bedroom apartment starts at $365/month, but I get it's not a very nice area, so you can pay $495/month for a 2-bedroom in a nice part of town.

You can pay $575-$600/month for a 2-bedroom with a swimming pool. Is that something you need, or something you want?

And, you can pay $750-$800/month for a 2-bedroom with swimming pool, tennis courts, a private gym for residents, and other amenities. Are those things you need, or things you want?

The article doesn't get into particulars like square footage and amenities, probably because it wouldn't produce the propaganda they want.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rodentraiser View Post
I think you misunderstand how poor you have to be to qualify for any kind of assistance. A lot of people do that. They think you're making $10 an hour and raking in government benefits. Boy, do I have news for you. Unless you're scamming the system, you need to be dirt poor - and I do mean dirt poor - to get full benefits. That is, no job, no income, and many times no assets.
That's another complete falsehood.

While there are asset tests for some welfare benefits, they are not as restrictive as you claim.

Medicaid allows you to have a car, plus a house valued at $750,000 and some States allow up to $1 Million.

With the exception of those receiving SSI, OADI or OASI, everyone has an income.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rodentraiser View Post
Low income people do NOT get money back.
They do if they qualify for EITC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rodentraiser View Post
Does anyone here really understand what poverty means? It isn't cutting down on take out or shopping at a thrift store. It's turning the heat completely off at night to save on utility bills even in freezing weather,...
Then relocate to a milder climate. The only thing stopping you is you.
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Old 11-17-2018, 05:53 PM
 
65,247 posts, read 66,717,619 times
Reputation: 43702
medicare actually cost 10-11k per in premium .

high income users pay 80% of that cost via their premium . the lowest bracket pays 25%

for every senior an advantage plan signs up , medicare gives that insurer 10-11k to service and cover that insured .

so advantage plans get a lot of money to cover the medicare portion whether that person has bills or not . the deal the advantage plans get is they get that 11k per but they have to take the good with the bad . if an insured needs a 100k operation the insurance company eats the difference . by the same token for every one in the plan who had just a few thousand dollars in claims they get to keep the difference .

this is why advantage plans try so hard to attract customers , it is highly profitable . so yes medicare does cost almost 11k per , but the most anyone pays for coverage is 80% of that 11k and that would be the highest bracket . i posted the chart above as far as what incomes pay what percentage of that 11k
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Old Today, 03:38 PM
 
Location: Oregon, formerly Texas
5,253 posts, read 3,435,940 times
Reputation: 8802
Moving is not free.

You have to move your stuff - furniture, etc..., which (usually) is cheaper than liquidating existing stuff and buying new stuff. For a long-haul move it can be anywhere from $1500-5000.

I've never been able to perfectly time a move, so I tended to have 1 month overlap where I paid double rent/utilities. This is especially true for low vacancy markets where you often have to rent 2-3 months in advance in order to have a place to move your stuff into.

I've never been able to arrange housing over distance. Always had to fly there and back to arrange accommodation before the new job started.

There are deposits, advances, etc...
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