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Old 10-31-2018, 11:40 PM
pdw pdw started this thread
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
1,467 posts, read 1,866,536 times
Reputation: 832

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200 years ago the masses weren't landowners. They were tenant farmers renting from lords, counts, earls and other nobles who owned the overwhelming majority of land. They maybe got to farm a small plot of the worst land for themselves and their families the rest had to be used to pay the lords. The urban poor lived in the same tennements being sold as $4 million luxury condos today, except it housed their whole family, had no running water or electricity and in the worst cases, no natural light. The people living in them had to slave away day and night to pay for these places, with even the children even being made to work.



After most of the last century having an achievable middle class dream, today we are reaching, at least in areas with viable job markets, a point where in order to buy property you must already have property. The cheapest houses in your entire metropolitan area are selling for around half a million and all your average worker has left in his pocket is the $150 for groceries after paying for his car insurance you need to get to work, his rented 65sqft room. God forbid you have a baby on the way and are looking to move into somewhere bigger, even a 1 bedroom apartment starts at around $1300-1400 a month in the cheapest areas. You better have a perfect credit rating, references from your last 2 landlords and your boss and make more money than everyone else applying for the same place. Better yet better bid $300 a month higher so $1700 a month just to make sure you can get a roof over your head at the end of the month. This is the reality of modern middle class life in the Western world.


Meanwhile, anyone who's lucky enough to own a house has enough equity to buy another one and another one and banks will approve any loans they ask for. These people could easily rent all their houses out and collect their monthly cheques, but why bother? The equity increases alone will make them richer and richer, and who wants to deal with the hassle of tenants? NIMBYism and resultant zoning laws banning construction of anything other than "luxury housing" even in working class areas is hastening the problem even more.



In the next 20 or 30 years a ruling class of landowners will bring us back to a world eerily like the first one unless some drastic changes are made. Dense slums of makeshift cardboard and wooden housing for once middle class working poor will appear illegally on public lands while legal housing units sit empty as "investments" being traded between the rich or filled by those lucky enough to be able to afford the rent. Or people will become fed up and a new wave of urban flight (to isolated rural areas not to suburbs or anywhere even remotely close to job markets) will cause a return to subsistence farming. This current economic system can't sustain itself for the middle class, something's gotta give.
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Old Yesterday, 01:53 AM
 
4,761 posts, read 2,268,925 times
Reputation: 8856
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdw View Post
After most of the last century having an achievable middle class dream, today we are reaching, at least in areas with viable job markets, a point where in order to buy property you must already have property. The cheapest houses in your entire metropolitan area are selling for around half a million and all your average worker has left in his pocket is the $150 for groceries after paying for his car insurance you need to get to work, his rented 65sqft room. God forbid you have a baby on the way and are looking to move into somewhere bigger, even a 1 bedroom apartment starts at around $1300-1400 a month in the cheapest areas. You better have a perfect credit rating, references from your last 2 landlords and your boss and make more money than everyone else applying for the same place. Better yet better bid $300 a month higher so $1700 a month just to make sure you can get a roof over your head at the end of the month. This is the reality of modern middle class life in the Western world.
That last sentence is where you fell apart.
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Old Yesterday, 03:09 AM
 
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Short answer is that is the goal. See these 2 videos:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtRVgt7IeXY



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuSLrchSL7M&t=39s
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Old Yesterday, 08:31 AM
pdw pdw started this thread
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
1,467 posts, read 1,866,536 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lieqiang View Post
That last sentence is where you fell apart.
You're right, it's not just the West. Thanks to a globalized housing market, much of the developing world is just as bad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mysticaltyger View Post
While I'm not inclined to believe conspiracy theorists, I do agree that the agenda of the haves is being prioritised to the detriment of everyone else. Homeowners' property value continuing to increase is not more important than a generation of people unable to put a roof over their heads.
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Old Yesterday, 10:54 AM
 
24,756 posts, read 26,824,957 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdw View Post
You're right, it's not just the West. Thanks to a globalized housing market, much of the developing world is just as bad.

While I'm not inclined to believe conspiracy theorists, I do agree that the agenda of the haves is being prioritised to the detriment of everyone else. Homeowners' property value continuing to increase is not more important than a generation of people unable to put a roof over their heads.
At some point, conspiracy theory becomes conspiracy fact. The woman in the 2nd video, Rosa Koire, wasn't gazing at her navel coming up with conspiracy theories. She actually worked for the State of California valuing land for the state so that the state could pay landowners if they were building or expanding roads, etc. She had a hard time valuing people's land because of all the restrictions on what people could do with their land. She started researching the origins of it and it went back to U.N. Agenda 21. Most of Agenda 21 has been implemented under the guise of state and local government laws and regulations. She has 1 hr 45 min talks on it on youtube where she goes into the timeline and details of how it's all been implemented.

So, please don't assume all conspiracy theorists are just dumb armchair philosophers with nothing better to do. This woman wasn't really looking to be a spokesperson on U.N. Agenda 21, but she's got a mountain of evidence to support what's going on. As she says, she doesn't deal in conspiracy theory, but conspiracy fact.

The irony is that your bolded words pretty much point to exactly what so-called conspiracy theorists are saying. Much of what's happening in the world not is random or accidental.

Last edited by mysticaltyger; Yesterday at 11:17 AM..
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Old Yesterday, 11:38 AM
 
2,072 posts, read 1,330,793 times
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I like the theory and return to urbanism reminds me of the not so distance past where people did try to live as close to another human as possible. where spreading out was just too difficult. Things do go around
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Old Yesterday, 12:42 PM
 
3,573 posts, read 2,004,172 times
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Please define how a shortage = crisis?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scarcity

By definition the materials and land itself are scarce resources... There is an inverse relationship between resources per person and population size. The scarcity as felt through pricing mechanism will get "worse" as the absolute population size increases.
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Old Yesterday, 02:31 PM
pdw pdw started this thread
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
1,467 posts, read 1,866,536 times
Reputation: 832
Quote:
Originally Posted by SWFL_Native View Post
Please define how a shortage = crisis?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scarcity

By definition the materials and land itself are scarce resources... There is an inverse relationship between resources per person and population size. The scarcity as felt through pricing mechanism will get "worse" as the absolute population size increases.
Population increase is not the driver of this. It's increasing wealth disparity and property hoarding by the rich. Population growth has slowed dramatically in the West, and is only kept up by a relative trickle of immigration to keep it from actually shrinking. When you look at the dramatic population growth in much of Canada and the United States during the first half of the 20th century, the cost of housing remained attainable despite the need for housing to be built very rapidly for an exploding population and with less technology than today. Housing is no longer affordable for the middle class, how is this not a crisis? If you're one of the lucky one's and don't think it effects you look at it from this perspective: where's the motivation to work when even full time work can't provide the basic shelter necessities for your family? This could cause a complete economic collapse.
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Old Yesterday, 05:14 PM
 
Location: Indianapolis, East Side
709 posts, read 352,712 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdw View Post
200 years ago the masses weren't landowners. They were tenant farmers renting from lords, counts, earls and other nobles who owned the overwhelming majority of land. They maybe got to farm a small plot of the worst land for themselves and their families the rest had to be used to pay the lords. The urban poor lived in the same tennements being sold as $4 million luxury condos today, except it housed their whole family, had no running water or electricity and in the worst cases, no natural light. The people living in them had to slave away day and night to pay for these places, with even the children even being made to work.

After most of the last century having an achievable middle class dream, today we are reaching, at least in areas with viable job markets, a point where in order to buy property you must already have property. The cheapest houses in your entire metropolitan area are selling for around half a million and all your average worker has left in his pocket is the $150 for groceries after paying for his car insurance you need to get to work, his rented 65sqft room. God forbid you have a baby on the way and are looking to move into somewhere bigger, even a 1 bedroom apartment starts at around $1300-1400 a month in the cheapest areas. You better have a perfect credit rating, references from your last 2 landlords and your boss and make more money than everyone else applying for the same place. Better yet better bid $300 a month higher so $1700 a month just to make sure you can get a roof over your head at the end of the month. This is the reality of modern middle class life in the Western world.

Meanwhile, anyone who's lucky enough to own a house has enough equity to buy another one and another one and banks will approve any loans they ask for. These people could easily rent all their houses out and collect their monthly cheques, but why bother? The equity increases alone will make them richer and richer, and who wants to deal with the hassle of tenants? NIMBYism and resultant zoning laws banning construction of anything other than "luxury housing" even in working class areas is hastening the problem even more.

In the next 20 or 30 years a ruling class of landowners will bring us back to a world eerily like the first one unless some drastic changes are made. Dense slums of makeshift cardboard and wooden housing for once middle class working poor will appear illegally on public lands while legal housing units sit empty as "investments" being traded between the rich or filled by those lucky enough to be able to afford the rent. Or people will become fed up and a new wave of urban flight (to isolated rural areas not to suburbs or anywhere even remotely close to job markets) will cause a return to subsistence farming. This current economic system can't sustain itself for the middle class, something's gotta give.
The modern city you're describing sounds more like a progressive cosmopolitan city than a typical city in the western world. Venture into flyover country and you'll find nicer digs for a lot less money.

Two hundred or more years ago, the general population didn't enjoy the property rights we have in the western world. Nor did they have access to banks. In the feudal times you're talking about, charging interest was a no-no (because The Bible) and many of those serfs were in fact slaves whose debts were passed down to their children and never paid off. The less fortunate in third-world countries continue living in corrugated shacks because of their lack of property rights and access to credit. See the work of Hernando de Soto.

I don't see our basic rights and banking collapsing in the next 20 or 30 years, nor do I see home ownership getting out of reach for people who are willing to change zip codes.
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Old Yesterday, 05:58 PM
 
24,756 posts, read 26,824,957 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keraT View Post
I like the theory and return to urbanism reminds me of the not so distance past where people did try to live as close to another human as possible. where spreading out was just too difficult. Things do go around
That is part of it, and there is some merit to not living in endless sprawl. That's certainly how it's being sold to us.

But there's something much more ugly and pernicious under the surface. It's really about eventually raising the price of housing through various land use restrictions so that very few will be able to afford to own (or even rent) even very modest housing. And the next step beyond that is that people will effectively be told where to live by government entities. All they have to do is keep the supply of new housing scarce and prices and rents will go up. Then people will want government sponsored housing schemes to make it "affordable". That will give governments the right to tell people where to live, much like happened in the USSR. People don't see that government policy (and it's similar policies in many different countries) is what's making housing unnecessarily expensive in the first place. This is also the classic way governments use problem-reaction-solution to seize more power. People don't notice this process because it plays out over a long period of time. We're always told the problems that are created are "unintended consequences" and the "solution" is always to give the very entities that created the problem even more power. This happens in a lot of realms, not just laws relating to land use regulations.

This is already happening in global cities like London, New York, San Francisco, etc. But it's also happening in countries with low population density. Why should countries like Canada and Australia, or even New Zealand have such expensive housing? It's not like they're running out of land! When you scratch the surface, you definitely find a whole lot of other stuff is going on.
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