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Old 12-07-2018, 10:16 AM
 
Location: Syracuse, New York
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If the employment to population ratio rises, wage stagnation becomes a little bit of an overrated topic. 3.1% wage growth is better with a 60.6% employment ratio than 3.1% wage growth with a 58.6% ratio.

Without the added jobs, the original jobs would a higher wage growth average. New jobs don't have years of pay hikes inflating their worth.
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Old 12-07-2018, 10:27 AM
 
4,375 posts, read 1,627,721 times
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Stupid article -- it prints a chart that refutes his own thesis. Quoting:

Middle class, 2000: $56,400
Middle class, 2015: $64,700

Now adjust the 2000 income to 2015 dollars: $56,400 x 1.38 = $77,832 (1.38 inflation factor per BLS)

That's a decline of -16% in real wages. It's true, we don't have wage stagnation, we have wage erosion.

Last edited by Elliott_CA; 12-07-2018 at 10:43 AM..
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Old 12-07-2018, 10:43 AM
 
8,436 posts, read 3,578,682 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elliott_CA View Post
Stupid article -- it prints a chart that refutes his own thesis. Quoting:

Middle class, 2000: $56,400
Middle class, 2015: $64,700

Now adjust the 2000 income to 2015 dollars: $56,400 x 1.38 = $77,832

That's a decline of -16% in real wages. It's true, we don't have wage stagnation, we have wage erosion.
Like Reagan said "Are you better off than 4 years ago?"

More important than the wage numbers is the standard of living. And that I think much more difficult to quantify, but more the root of the whole matter.
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Old 12-07-2018, 11:06 AM
 
4,375 posts, read 1,627,721 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
Explain why you are entitled to consume like a locust.

After you do that, explain how we benefit by accelerating the depletion, over-use or over-consumption of resources, goods and services.
Over-consumption relative to what? If anything, the economy shows continued signs of being demand-constrained. That's the only explanation of how you can have years of money creation and deficit spending and low inflation all at the same time. Exhibit No. 1 is the record low velocity of money.

MV = PQ where M = money supply, V = velocity, P = prices, Q= GDP

Money supply is up but the velocity of money is down; thus Q can go up but P can remain small.

This is why trickle down doesn't work: money injected at the upper 1% class is relatively stagnant and just sits there, as evidenced by the record low V.

Now if we had demand-side stimulus targeted at the middle class, who are much more efficient at spending new money, V would go up. We'd get more bang for the buck because M would not have to increased as much. Implementing a "living wage" and student loan relief would be a good start at stimulating demand and boosting V. It can be funded partially by clawing back some of Trump's tax cuts, which are horribly inefficient.
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Old 12-07-2018, 08:03 PM
 
Location: Ohio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elliott_CA View Post
Over-consumption relative to what?

Relative to the goods or services that are demanded.
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Old 12-07-2018, 11:04 PM
 
1,127 posts, read 595,611 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoonose View Post
Like Reagan said "Are you better off than 4 years ago?"

More important than the wage numbers is the standard of living. And that I think much more difficult to quantify, but more the root of the whole matter.
HooNose, I employed the U.S. Bureau of Labor statistics inflation calculator to confirm Elliot_CA’s calculation. His 16% number seems essentially correct.

I don’t know how these years 2000 and 2015 were derived. Are the average or median USA annual wages?
I consider USA’s median annual wage adjusted for the dollar’s annual purchasing powers, to be an excellent indicator of USA’s living standards.
Can you cite anything more credible than what Elliot_CA cites?

//////////////////////
Employing the inflation calculator provided by https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc...1&year2=201501 , $56, 400 in Jan 2000 = $78086.94 in Jan 2015.
(-78086.94 + 64,700)/ $78086.94 < 0.176. USA’s middle income earners purchasing power over the duration between Januarys’ 2000 and 2015 have been reduced in excess of 17.6% .
//////////////////////////// https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc...2&year2=201512 , $56, 400 in Dec 2000 = $76,666.72 in Jan 2015.
(-$76,666.72 + 64,700)/ $76,666.72 < 0.156 USA’s middle income earners purchasing power over the duration between Decembers’ 2000 and 2015 have been reduced in excess of 15.6% .
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Old 12-08-2018, 12:19 AM
 
1,127 posts, read 595,611 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SyraBrian View Post
If the employment to population ratio rises, wage stagnation becomes a little bit of an overrated topic. 3.1% wage growth is better with a 60.6% employment ratio than 3.1% wage growth with a 58.6% ratio.

Without the added jobs, the original jobs would a higher wage growth average. New jobs don't have years of pay hikes inflating their worth.
SyraBrian, if your entire wage income is in excess of 15% less this year, that's an overrated topic?

we’re discussing the median wage of all USA’s annual wages over durations of decades. we’re discussing the median wage of all USA’s annual wages over durations of decades. New jobs, old jobs?

Why not the effect of butterfly’s flapped left wing in the year 2000, while perched on a window sill in Chile? I don’t know which house or which window, but it occurred prior to noon, on a Tuesday, within the city of Santiago.
Your post serves no purpose other than to muddy the water in order to obscure rather than to clarify.
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Old 12-08-2018, 09:00 AM
 
8,436 posts, read 3,578,682 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Supposn View Post
HooNose, I employed the U.S. Bureau of Labor statistics inflation calculator to confirm Elliot_CA’s calculation. His 16% number seems essentially correct.

I don’t know how these years 2000 and 2015 were derived. Are the average or median USA annual wages?
I consider USA’s median annual wage adjusted for the dollar’s annual purchasing powers, to be an excellent indicator of USA’s living standards.
Can you cite anything more credible than what Elliot_CA cites?

//////////////////////
Employing the inflation calculator provided by https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc...1&year2=201501 , $56, 400 in Jan 2000 = $78086.94 in Jan 2015.
(-78086.94 + 64,700)/ $78086.94 < 0.176. USA’s middle income earners purchasing power over the duration between Januarys’ 2000 and 2015 have been reduced in excess of 17.6% .
//////////////////////////// https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc...2&year2=201512 , $56, 400 in Dec 2000 = $76,666.72 in Jan 2015.
(-$76,666.72 + 64,700)/ $76,666.72 < 0.156 USA’s middle income earners purchasing power over the duration between Decembers’ 2000 and 2015 have been reduced in excess of 15.6% .
Again, I would look at the lifestyle of today's middle class vs wages per se. Wages are flat or slightly up. I don't think anybody can deny that. So BFD! Can this generation afford the American Dream like my generation?
Roughly meaning the suburban house, 2 kids and cars, and whatever size flat screen, ect. Of course this all being very dependent on local COL at one's chosen spot to live.

In 1976-7 I made $13.2K as a medical intern. I think it was 2015 when my daughter did her internship and made like $52K. With inflation the same number! She chose Portland OR, so her COL will be way higher. But I think she will have a close enough lifestyle to ours to say there has been no degradation.
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Old 12-08-2018, 10:06 AM
 
1,127 posts, read 595,611 times
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HooNose, I believe that the proportion of our population earning 40% or less than our median wage is increasing, while the remaining proportion of our nation’s income earners are decreasing; (i.e. there are a lesser proportion of income earners within the middle-income bracket).

IMO this is a reduction of those enjoying middle-income living standards.

Last edited by toosie; 12-08-2018 at 03:28 PM..
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Old 12-08-2018, 10:14 AM
 
8,436 posts, read 3,578,682 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Supposn View Post
HooNose, I believe that the proportion of our population earning 40% or less than our median wage is increasing, while the remaining proportion of our nation’s income earners are decreasing; (i.e. there are a lesser proportion of income earners within the middle-income bracket).

IMO this is a reduction of those enjoying middle-income living standards.
Well, I think we already take care of our poor. The std of living of our poor is some of the best in the world.

I do agree we need to focus on the middle class.

And as I have said before, the quickest and easiest way to move them up is by reducing their OOP medical expenses.

Last edited by toosie; 12-08-2018 at 03:28 PM..
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