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Old 12-06-2018, 01:36 PM
 
Location: Omaha, Nebraska
6,443 posts, read 3,598,210 times
Reputation: 15612

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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoffD View Post
The problem is the bottom half contributes far less to the system than they take out.
The other problem is that maat55 is vastly overestimating the financial acumen of the average American (as even a brief perusal of the Personal Finance forum will clearly show). One of Social Security's major strengths is that Joe Average CAN'T get at the money prior to age 62 in order to "invest" it. Social Security protects financial illiterates from themselves (and the rest of us from them later, as it insures they won't be absolutely destitute when they hit their 60s and their financial chickens come home to roost).
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Old 12-06-2018, 01:53 PM
 
Location: Oklahoma
2,036 posts, read 686,553 times
Reputation: 954
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aredhel View Post
The other problem is that maat55 is vastly overestimating the financial acumen of the average American (as even a brief perusal of the Personal Finance forum will clearly show). One of Social Security's major strengths is that Joe Average CAN'T get at the money prior to age 62 in order to "invest" it. Social Security protects financial illiterates from themselves (and the rest of us from them later, as it insures they won't be absolutely destitute when they hit their 60s and their financial chickens come home to roost).
A private system would be no different as far as access age. Yet, I see no problem with exemptions for those diagnosed with a terminal disease getting early access. Nevertheless, if one dies at 60, he will leave an inheritance.

And honestly, it is pompous of you to suggest the average American is incapable of directing his investment between a few simple options. Americans do it at most jobs with 401ks.


Btw, there’s nothing wrong with those who wish just voluntarily staying in SS as an option.
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Old 12-06-2018, 01:56 PM
 
65,957 posts, read 67,221,781 times
Reputation: 44158
you better give your whole pay check to the gov't to support all this . now we are giving back the money of those who die early ...


like i said , you are really not qualified to think you even have a piece of a solution that is close to affordable or a do . .i am done with this nonsense c-ya
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Old 12-06-2018, 02:42 PM
 
Location: Omaha, Nebraska
6,443 posts, read 3,598,210 times
Reputation: 15612
Quote:
Originally Posted by maat55 View Post
And honestly, it is pompous of you to suggest the average American is incapable of directing his investment between a few simple options. Americans do it at most jobs with 401ks.
Have you actually looked at how well most Americans are doing with their 401k investments? Most people end up buying high and selling low because they overestimate their risk tolerance, only to panic sell when the market drops. Or they swing the other way and put all their money in ultraconservative investments like money market funds at a very early age and see little growth over the years (although at least they're not losing a lot).

You, like many educated and intelligent people, are VASTLY over-estimating the financial acumen of the average person. Talk to anyone who actually manages a 401k plan if you don't believe what I am saying.
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Old 12-06-2018, 05:26 PM
 
Location: Oklahoma
2,036 posts, read 686,553 times
Reputation: 954
Quote:
Originally Posted by mathjak107 View Post
you better give your whole pay check to the gov't to support all this . now we are giving back the money of those who die early ...


like i said , you are really not qualified to think you even have a piece of a solution that is close to affordable or a do . .i am done with this nonsense c-ya
Why? When you die with a 401k, is the money coming from the government? A private account is a private account. I donít blame you for bowing out, you clearly donít understand private investments. Iím advocating a transition from the government to the private sector, not much different than companies did from pensions to 401kís. Making them mandatory, making qualified plans have a disability Ins. and low risk target funds, while putting reasonable access timeframes on the assets is not rocket science. The only challenge is the transition fro SS, which can be done in increments. My plan eventually eliminates the unfair responsibility and piling of debt on future generations. Your plan only keeps raising rates and implementing forced redistribution, which are an abomination to freedom.
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Old 12-06-2018, 05:32 PM
 
Location: Oklahoma
2,036 posts, read 686,553 times
Reputation: 954
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aredhel View Post
Have you actually looked at how well most Americans are doing with their 401k investments? Most people end up buying high and selling low because they overestimate their risk tolerance, only to panic sell when the market drops. Or they swing the other way and put all their money in ultraconservative investments like money market funds at a very early age and see little growth over the years (although at least they're not losing a lot).

You, like many educated and intelligent people, are VASTLY over-estimating the financial acumen of the average person. Talk to anyone who actually manages a 401k plan if you don't believe what I am saying.
Most Americans are welcome to invest in treasuries if they wish. Investing in target mutual funds long term does not need the individual to buy and sell. Target date funds automatically revert to cash equivalents the closer to redemption. We do just fine with ours on auto pilot. And again, qualified plans can have low risk investments.
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Old 12-06-2018, 05:54 PM
 
Location: Omaha, Nebraska
6,443 posts, read 3,598,210 times
Reputation: 15612
Quote:
Originally Posted by maat55 View Post
Most Americans are welcome to invest in treasuries if they wish. Investing in target mutual funds long term does not need the individual to buy and sell. Target date funds automatically revert to cash equivalents the closer to redemption. We do just fine with ours on auto pilot. And again, qualified plans can have low risk investments.
You're still missing the point. Investing isn't difficult, true. But it does require SOME knowledge, and (more important) the self-discipline to stick with an appropriate investment plan despite whatever your gut is telling you to do at the moment. Any plan that allows individual investors to pick and choose between various investment options will end up with a significant percentage of investors who invest inappropriately, and their investment mistakes will cost them dearly. What do you propose should happen to those people, who mismanaged their investments and now lack enough money for a secure retirement?

The only way your plan works is if it forces everyone to save a certain percentage of their income, and if it forces everyone into a target date fund. But that has your plan looking a lot like Social Security (just without the annuity benefit that protects against excess longevity, and the tilt that favors lower-wage earners).
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Old 12-06-2018, 05:56 PM
 
Location: Omaha, Nebraska
6,443 posts, read 3,598,210 times
Reputation: 15612
Quote:
Originally Posted by maat55 View Post
I donít blame you for bowing out, you clearly donít understand private investments..
This statement is hilarious. Maat55, mathjak107 is one of the most knowledgeable posters on this board when it comes to investments.
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Old 12-06-2018, 07:37 PM
 
451 posts, read 208,219 times
Reputation: 514
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aredhel View Post
This statement is hilarious. Maat55, mathjak107 is one of the most knowledgeable posters on this board when it comes to investments.
Agreed. I think Maat55 should reconsider his comment and extend an apology to mathjak107.
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Old 12-06-2018, 09:59 PM
 
Location: Ohio
18,323 posts, read 13,445,431 times
Reputation: 14227
[quote=Aredhel;53817716]The other problem is that maat55 is vastly overestimating the financial acumen of the average American (as even a brief perusal of the Personal Finance forum will clearly show). One of Social Security's major strengths is that Joe Average CAN'T get at the money prior to age 62 in order to "invest" it. Social Security protects financial illiterates from themselves (and the rest of us from them later, as it insures they won't be absolutely destitute when they hit their 60s and their financial chickens come home to roost).[/quote

That's exactly right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maat55 View Post
And honestly, it is pompous of you to suggest the average American is incapable of directing his investment between a few simple options. Americans do it at most jobs with 401ks.
No, it's backed by tons of data proving they cannot. The FINRA Foundation found that 66% of Americans are financially illiterate, and another 21% are barely literate.

All the data consistently shows that 85% are just not smart enough to successfully invest.

The Saint Louis Federal Reserve found that financial literacy does not increase with age, which implies that people can't learn more than they already know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maat55 View Post
Why? When you die with a 401k, is the money coming from the government?
What money?

401(k) plans are a failure as a retirement vehicle for the vast majority of Americans. In 2017, the average account balance was $103,900, but the median was $26,300 and that's because a few accounts have very high balances, which skews the average upward.


These are the numbers for people age 55-64, and it's hardly "winning."



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