U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Economics
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 12-05-2018, 07:13 AM
 
33,989 posts, read 12,982,221 times
Reputation: 21566

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by aridon View Post
Tariffs as currently implemented are a nightmare.

Jobs aren't coming coming back, automation and companies moving will continue to erode what jobs are here and tariffs will continue to disrupt supply chains and further exasperate the trade deficit. Tariffs will not accomplish their stated goals and will be a major head wind economically not only for the United States but the world.

Asia is the economic hot bed of the future. That is where demand will drive the world economy and the United States market has peaked.

Tariffs are only going to hinder our ability to exploit Asia as well as all this political grandstanding. We never should of pulled out of tpp.

We also should have never dumped tons of stimulus on the economy at full employment nor should we be in such deep deficit spending.

Lots of serious economic missteps that ultimately will assist in bringing about the next recession and make it that much harder to get out of it.
Nailed it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 12-05-2018, 09:40 AM
 
Location: East Cobb, GA
861 posts, read 358,077 times
Reputation: 1283
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw335xi View Post
I support renegotiating trade deals and tariffs can be a useful tool to force negotiation. However, I disagree with Trump's approach when it comes to China. They can use that approach on Mexico and it's fine, but China isn't some 3rd world country anymore. Their major cities are starting to make America look outdated. Check out Shanghai, it's an amazing city, very modern, very expensive, etc. Chinese are buying properties all over the world, they actually are the main reason for sky rocketing real estate prices in major cities around the world including cities in the US. As China said, we are not a poor country, you cannot use the same tactics as you could with some random poor country.
Too bad you can’t see those cities because the air pollution is so terrible.

I haven’t really noticed many goods getting more expensive. I would have thought that the cost of the tariffs would be passed on to the consumer. I think what’s happening instead is that companies are absorbing the costs and trying to hold out rather than raise prices. They will be the ones to protest when they really start feeling the squeeze.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-05-2018, 09:46 AM
 
7,174 posts, read 6,764,796 times
Reputation: 5423
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soccernerd View Post
Too bad you can’t see those cities because the air pollution is so terrible.

I haven’t really noticed many goods getting more expensive. I would have thought that the cost of the tariffs would be passed on to the consumer. I think what’s happening instead is that companies are absorbing the costs and trying to hold out rather than raise prices. They will be the ones to protest when they really start feeling the squeeze.
The reason why the pollution is terrible is because the polluting manufacturing base moved from the US in the 60's and 70's to Japan in the 70's and 80's before it got to SE Asia and China in the 90's and 00's. The source of the pollution is being moved farther and farther away from the consumer. The heavily polluting coal-fired power plants in the US are mostly in rural areas now. The consumer waste is being shipped outside the country.

Japan once had the same issues as China has now and is starting to address. People were wearing smog masks and taking out cancer insurance because the manufacturers were polluting with impunity.

As China moves up the economic scale and relies less on export manufacturing, they'll address pollution just like all the other manufacturing centers. Some of the low-end manufacturing base will shift to other locations in Asia.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-05-2018, 12:15 PM
 
2,265 posts, read 854,086 times
Reputation: 4390
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw335xi View Post
I support renegotiating trade deals and tariffs can be a useful tool to force negotiation. However, I disagree with Trump's approach when it comes to China. They can use that approach on Mexico and it's fine, but China isn't some 3rd world country anymore. Their major cities are starting to make America look outdated. Check out Shanghai, it's an amazing city, very modern, very expensive, etc. Chinese are buying properties all over the world, they actually are the main reason for sky rocketing real estate prices in major cities around the world including cities in the US. As China said, we are not a poor country, you cannot use the same tactics as you could with some random poor country.
In other words, intimidation, force and threats don't work on powerful countries only on those who cannot defend themselves and have to cave in to demands. China is not the USA's biggest trading partner but the low cost products that the big home improvement stores negotiate with the Chinese is the life-blood of profits for these stores. I predict prices for goods sourced from other countries or made in USA would double selling prices if companies want to retain their margins.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-05-2018, 12:21 PM
 
6,951 posts, read 4,523,014 times
Reputation: 12196
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw335xi View Post
... A lot of people in America still have this perception of China from before. Take a trip and visit. Shanghai especially. They don't have all this bureaucracy and red tape to build and innovate. What would take 30 years to do in America, they can do in 3 years.
Few of us are Chinese businessmen or civil-servants. We don’t have the inside view. I would surmise that Chinese red-tape rivals America’s, human nature being human nature… it’s just that the red-tape manifests itself in other ways. Instead of decade-long environmental impact studies, they probably have red-tape on Party-related, ahem, internal considerations.

While red-tape is ubiquitously a problem, the greater problem is when advanced and flourishing societies turn insular and closed. This is precisely what happened to China 500 years ago. They went from a leading civilization to a backwater, while the West rose from burning heretics to discovering calculus. China’s latest bout of inward-turning was its disastrous “cultural revolution”. Now there is something of an inversion… China is ambitious in outward expansion (though sometimes by disingenuous and unsavory means), while America wants to isolate itself. The consequences are predictable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soccernerd View Post
I haven’t really noticed many goods getting more expensive. I would have thought that the cost of the tariffs would be passed on to the consumer. I think what’s happening instead is that companies are absorbing the costs and trying to hold out rather than raise prices. They will be the ones to protest when they really start feeling the squeeze.
The main consequence of tariffs thus far is, speculatively, a declining stock-market. Investors are perhaps supposing, that companies are indeed reluctant to pass-on the higher costs to consumers. So, profits fall instead. So far, this is only speculation. We will see in several quarters' time, what actually happened to corporate profits. If profits stay good, and stock P/E ratios collapse because the "P" falls while the "E" rises, then we could argue, that this is all a risible over-reaction, and maybe the effect of tariffs was more psychological than financial. But if earnings actually do stagnate (let alone fall), it would not be outlandish or narrowly political, to blame tariffs.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-05-2018, 03:55 PM
 
1,107 posts, read 590,149 times
Reputation: 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw335xi View Post
I support renegotiating trade deals and tariffs can be a useful tool to force negotiation. However, I disagree with Trump's approach when it comes to China. They can use that approach on Mexico and it's fine, but China isn't some 3rd world country anymore. Their major cities are starting to make America look outdated. Check out Shanghai, it's an amazing city, very modern, very expensive, etc. Chinese are buying properties all over the world, they actually are the main reason for sky rocketing real estate prices in major cities around the world including cities in the US. As China said, we are not a poor country, you cannot use the same tactics as you could with some random poor country.
BMW335xi, other than mutual agreement of a “most favored nation” concept, I’m opposed to USA entering or remaining in any mutual trade agreements for economic purposes. Sovereign nations determine of what they permit or prohibit to pass through their own national borders.
There are “most favored nation” agreements stated explicitly or by implicitly within the text of every international trade agreement that the USA has ever entered into.

The concept of “most favored nation” does not in itself prohibit participating mutually agreeing nations from favoring their own entities in matters that are the subject of the agreement, (except when within the agreement, the practice is explicitly prohibited). But the clause does prohibit the mutually agreeing nations from granting any foreign nations any advantage that they deny to any among the agreeing nations; (i.e. the mutually agreeing nations cannot be treated less equitably than any other foreign nation).
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-05-2018, 05:15 PM
 
2,468 posts, read 2,168,155 times
Reputation: 2739
I'm okay with using tariffs as leverage to renegotiate trade deals which may not be favorable to America.

(Note: I'm not an expert global economist and don't really know if Trump is actually getting us better trade deals or not... but I don't have an issue with using our economic might as leverage).

With that being said, in the long run, tariffs will likely hurt more than they help. But if the threat of them happens to get us better trade deals, then they would likely help more than hurt.

Generally speaking, I am anti-tariff. But go to Europe and look at how few American cars are on the road. And it isn't because "American cars are crap" because you don't see very many Hondas, Kias, Hyundais, Toyotas, etc. either. You see mostly French, German, and Italian cars. I'm guessing there are some favorable policies (tariffs?) throughout Europe that encourage EU cars as opposed to others. So I get the idea of wanting to play hardball.

But I'm skeptical.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-05-2018, 05:23 PM
 
Location: Aurora Denveralis
3,903 posts, read 1,300,515 times
Reputation: 5459
Quote:
Originally Posted by steveklein View Post
But go to Europe and look at how few American cars are on the road. And it isn't because "American cars are crap" because you don't see very many Hondas, Kias, Hyundais, Toyotas, etc. either. You see mostly French, German, and Italian cars. I'm guessing there are some favorable policies (tariffs?) throughout Europe that encourage EU cars as opposed to others. So I get the idea of wanting to play hardball.
Most countries protect their native auto industry with tariffs. And have for a long time. Among the other justifications are that it keeps a vital wartime/economic trouble time industry going.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-06-2018, 08:59 AM
 
7,174 posts, read 6,764,796 times
Reputation: 5423
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quietude View Post
Most countries protect their native auto industry with tariffs. And have for a long time. Among the other justifications are that it keeps a vital wartime/economic trouble time industry going.
A lot of the car ownership in Europe is done through the employer as a part of the compensation. Also, the roughly 20 percent VAT doesn't apply to domestically produced cars.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-06-2018, 10:14 AM
 
327 posts, read 166,965 times
Reputation: 394
The whole debate about isolation and protectionism here does not consider the fact that US dollar is still the world's reserve and primary trading currency and China's currency is is still tied to USD for the most part. I am not qualified to predict what the exact impact of this but I know that the US situation is not exactly like post independence India trying to protect is local market through tariff and import restrictions.


When US tries to use protectionism while it supplies money to most of the world (or at least it's local currency is used for trading throughout the world), it's like imperialist British government from 1800s trying isolate itself from its colonies - in my mind.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Economics
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top