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Old 01-27-2019, 01:02 PM
 
Location: Texas
7,530 posts, read 2,837,390 times
Reputation: 16139

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Quote:
Originally Posted by AtkinsonDan View Post
I found that it is just easier to remove dining out from my activities altogether. .
Well, I don't dine out much either anymore. And a lot of restaurants in my city have closed down with fewer new ones opening up. Fast food places still get a lot of business though.

People just don't throw money around like they used to.

 
Old 01-27-2019, 01:30 PM
 
21,031 posts, read 27,067,008 times
Reputation: 14478
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frostnip View Post
That's not true, and the degree to which it's untrue depends on the restaurant. But even if it were, I think a case can be reasonably made that if someone works all day at honest, productive work they should be making enough money to live all day as well. Even setting decency aside, the economy requires a large quantity of workers to fill these sorts of positions. Business and industry won't operate without them. While the individual person might not be in demand, the position is, and it needs a person to fill it (at least until robots get more cost-effective). If you're not going to pay that person a living wage, that just causes other burdens on the system. Not to mention, having working people below the poverty line creates a disincentive to work in general, which is not a trend that's healthy for society.
I know a waiter at Chena Hot Springs who makes around 100K per year. I know he's an outlier, but other people I know in the service industry seem to be doing okay as well. People aren't doing this kind of work because it's all they can get, and it's not necessarily the type of unskilled labor many people think it is. ETA I worked as a server in college because it offered flexible hours and I earned around $25 per hour, which was quite a lot in those days. It was the only reason I took that job — doing retail or office work would have meant far less money and way longer hours.

Last edited by Metlakatla; 01-27-2019 at 01:40 PM..
 
Old 01-27-2019, 02:07 PM
 
780 posts, read 606,757 times
Reputation: 894
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
Let's pretend that somehow, magically, these business owners can find kitchen and cleaning help willing to work for extremely low wages.
Heck, perhaps they even work for below minimum wage and are paid in cash. cough

As a result,people that might otherwise do that work...but not for such low wages, in turn compete for other jobs like waiters.

Now if you have more people competing for the waiter jobs then the employer doesn't have to pay as much to fill the position under the basic mechanism of supply and demand.

This is how a pool of cheap exploitable labor not only gets paid poorly themselves but contributes to the wage suppression\stagnation of other people working in labor roles.

Same impact and concept if the job is either mechanized or off-shored. Job goes poof....more supply....lower pay.

The employer found some cheaper way to get things done, needs fewer workers....means more supply of workers for OTHER jobs which again Economics 101: Lower pay when supply of workers increases.
And the same party calling for higher min wage is the same wanting open boarders and increased "immigration".
 
Old 01-27-2019, 03:07 PM
 
Location: Proxima Centauri
4,178 posts, read 1,742,206 times
Reputation: 4606
It must be true it's written by Breitbart.


First of all, I looked up the menu on the Heartland Brewery which is the name of four of Bloostein's restaurants and when you click on the menu you get nothing. One of Bloostein's websites says employee owned. how is it employee owned. Bloostein owns it.



This guy is another whiny businessman in the most expensive city in the country. He's crying all the way to the bank and whining the company line.
 
Old 01-27-2019, 03:21 PM
 
Location: Aurora Denveralis
5,045 posts, read 1,664,193 times
Reputation: 7429
Quote:
Originally Posted by pipsters View Post
And the same party calling for higher min wage is the same wanting open boarders and increased "immigration".
There's absolutely no contradiction there except to the clueless.
 
Old 01-27-2019, 03:31 PM
 
780 posts, read 606,757 times
Reputation: 894
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quietude View Post
There's absolutely no contradiction there except to the clueless.
Absolutely there is. The more illegals coming in and low skilled labor, the increase in supply on the labor front. This surpresses wages for legal citizens. It's a no brainer.

My industry saw huge jumps in compensation when the low skilled labor was removed from the equation. Starting wages increased upward of 300%. My own wages doubled and that was on the higher skilled front.
 
Old 01-27-2019, 10:04 PM
 
49,861 posts, read 40,342,375 times
Reputation: 31321
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quietude View Post
There's absolutely no contradiction there except to the clueless.
I'm not touching the political arguments.

A few comments though related to the economics of higher minimum wage and illegals.

1) At a $15 min. wage you can bypass by hiring illegals more and pay them less than that. In fact, it's an incentive to pay more people off the books to skirt those laws...which means underage labor as well as others flying under the radar of "the system" but those are less common.

2) The congressional budget office, non-partisan findings on higher minimum wage is that it would result in employers not employing lower end talent and instead focusing on automation and the better employees. I've noted that one of my own kids is experiencing this as they work part time at Target who has raised their wages (but is cutting workers). If you know anyone that works at Costco, Whole foods etc. they pay well but it ain't like working at the Dollar store in terms of expectations.

3) A federal minimum wage is dumb solely because one-size fits all makes no sense. $15/hr. is ridiculously high in rural america where I grew up and you can get an single bedroom apartment for $400/month or less.
I fully support cities setting minimum wages at whatever level they deem fit as that is typically granular enough.

Just a few posts earlier I clearly outlined using economics exactly how more illegal workers suppress wages not just in the jobs they work but in others that are reasonable substitutes. I'd think that would make a good starting point if you'd like to have a discussion on any of these things. The only thing I refuse to touch in this thread is politics. All that ever does is make peoples brains turn off.
 
Old 01-27-2019, 10:11 PM
 
49,861 posts, read 40,342,375 times
Reputation: 31321
Quote:
Originally Posted by pipsters View Post
Absolutely there is. The more illegals coming in and low skilled labor, the increase in supply on the labor front. This surpresses wages for legal citizens. It's a no brainer.

My industry saw huge jumps in compensation when the low skilled labor was removed from the equation. Starting wages increased upward of 300%. My own wages doubled and that was on the higher skilled front.
2 comments:

1) It only impacts people that are in those industries or reasonable substitutes. If the number of illegal workers in the US tripled tomorrow, pay for roofers, fruit pickers, dish washers, maids etc. would fall but oh (just to be ironic) highschool english teachers, physicists, RN's and engineers wouldn't notice a thing. This is an important distinction as those that don't rub elbows with the working class generally lack the social diversity to recognize how others could have their wages impacted by a flood of cheap labor because it doesn't impact them.


2) This same phenomenon occurs with some degree of off-shoring and legal visa holders in a number of non-labor professions, fir example programming.
 
Old Yesterday, 06:12 AM
 
17,108 posts, read 18,445,218 times
Reputation: 24792
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quietude View Post
A rise to $15 would be a huge hit to restaurants, who often operate under an hourly minimum far below standard MW because the workers make much of their income from tips.

But then, tipping is an idiotic, out of control system belonging to another age of business and service. Restaurants should pay a market wage, discourage or forbid tipping and set prices like every other business as as consequence.

This is another example of why you can't arbitrarily change one element in a complex economic system. A high minimum wage for service workers should have been accompanied by other changes.
Nobody forces you to tip. I tip if I get good service . If I dont get good service....I don’t tip. I have a sliding scale of tipping. Seems pretty simple. Nobody reaches in my wallet and pulls out tip money.
When I hear “that guy stiiifed me out of my tip”.... yeah.....maybe. But what extra work exactly did you do to earn the tip? Oh you brought me my food....just like you’re supposed to because...? Oh yeah it’s your job to bring me food and fill my glass, provide basic service at your eating establishment.


.
 
Old Yesterday, 06:47 AM
 
4,504 posts, read 2,371,172 times
Reputation: 3827
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
Let's pretend that somehow, magically, these business owners can find kitchen and cleaning help willing to work for extremely low wages.
Heck, perhaps they even work for below minimum wage and are paid in cash. cough

As a result,people that might otherwise do that work...but not for such low wages, in turn compete for other jobs like waiters.

Now if you have more people competing for the waiter jobs then the employer doesn't have to pay as much to fill the position under the basic mechanism of supply and demand.

This is how a pool of cheap exploitable labor not only gets paid poorly themselves but contributes to the wage suppression\stagnation of other people working in labor roles.

Same impact and concept if the job is either mechanized or off-shored. Job goes poof....more supply....lower pay.

The employer found some cheaper way to get things done, needs fewer workers....means more supply of workers for OTHER jobs which again Economics 101: Lower pay when supply of workers increases.
Gee. That's just too logical.

Oh well, $100/hr minimum wage. That should help everyone.
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