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Old 04-25-2008, 05:38 PM
 
Location: NJ/SC
4,286 posts, read 13,169,531 times
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I don't want to close the thread, so please stay on topic. Stop the trolling, arguing and name calling, thanks!
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Old 04-27-2008, 11:36 PM
 
48,519 posts, read 81,585,630 times
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I thnik thast many in problems were only in the middle class based on their combined income and credit line. Now the credit is drying up and the payments continue.
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Old 05-02-2008, 08:01 PM
 
323 posts, read 1,879,263 times
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This is really it..in a nutshell!

Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyTexan View Post
But now we see what caused the "jobless recovery"..cheap money and questionable financial practices.

Rather than increasing paychecks..people got increasing debt and spent "loaned" money, not "earned" money.
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Old 05-04-2008, 04:05 PM
 
74 posts, read 178,995 times
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Default I think people are waking up to the reality

I think we are starting to see that debt has a dark side. If everything that is going wrong economically is not due to debt mis-used then it is due to what? Can you seriously blame others if you can not afford something you counted on holding a market value? We live in a society/global village that tags market values to widgets and services. Houses go down in price. Food and gasoline goes up in price. Jobs get less salary due to competition. I am not saying that I like the effects of the market, but it hard to stop a train, so to speak. So, you will have people doing fine who decided to join 'em instead of trying to beat the tides of the market.
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Old 05-05-2008, 11:54 PM
 
Location: Ohio
18,288 posts, read 13,427,192 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John23 View Post
This was before the credit explosion, people use to put a downpayment on a house...it seems so antiquated now. People didnt need home equity loans. They didnt need re-financing. You could get by on real money.
Well, sure, people had self discipline.

Quote:
I think everything fell off a cliff after that (coinciding with Greenspans mega bubble in '96?) If it wasnt for all these loans and financing, people would be in povery right now.

-Inflation took off after that
Got that wrong.

From the time Clinton took office up to the present the annual inflation rate has been 2.9%, far below the 6.3% in the UK and the double-digit inflation in Italy, Spain and many other countries. In fact, since 1974 the average inflation rate in the US has been 3.9% per year.
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Old 05-05-2008, 11:56 PM
 
Location: Ohio
18,288 posts, read 13,427,192 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by One Thousand View Post
Do you know how much it costs to employ an American worker?

In addition to the hourly rate, add 7.5% for Social Security, average 4% for unemployment, for blue collar work average 8% for workman's comp.

That's X+.2X=Hourly rate of pay.

What's an average factory worker demand for wages? $15? Probably more? $15 after the cost of employing is $18.

The there's property taxes for your location and whatever's the latest tax dreamt up by the government.
Good point, but you forgot to factor in holiday pay, vacation pay, sick/personal days, health care benefits, plus compliance costs for the regulatory paperwork drill every-time an employee is hired or terminated.
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Old 05-06-2008, 02:58 AM
 
Location: Los Angeles, Ca
2,884 posts, read 5,066,621 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
Well, sure, people had self discipline.



Got that wrong.

From the time Clinton took office up to the present the annual inflation rate has been 2.9%, far below the 6.3% in the UK and the double-digit inflation in Italy, Spain and many other countries. In fact, since 1974 the average inflation rate in the US has been 3.9% per year.
I don't think it was all self discipline.

I lived in Los Angeles in the 80's and 90's, I remember as a kid, not that long ago, 91, 93, single parents could afford homes. I remember staying over at friends houses, one or two parents lived there and worked. People weren't crammed with roommates. People didnt need all these tricks in order to live.

95/96/97 was a big shift. I think the real economy must be down by 15-20% at least since then, the only thing keeping it afloat have been the greenspan/bernanke bubbles, creative financing, all these loans.

-Pop culture changed about that time.

-Self help/psycho babble, dumbing down in the media

-Societal standards are down. Does that happen in a healthy economy making real gains for everyone?

-Sports changed. When I watch clips from 96/97 (the NBA say), I think people were better off then than they are now.

Lots of anecdotal evidence. People now are spent.

Gold is up 300-400% since bottoming around the late 90's. That's not a sign of a healthy economy.
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Old 05-06-2008, 03:14 AM
 
Location: At my computador
2,057 posts, read 3,040,122 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John23 View Post
I don't think it was all self discipline.
Discipline says don't buy the house if you can't afford it. End of story.

If people did that, then skyrocketing housing prices wouldn't exist; demand would slow down and prices would level.


Quote:
the only thing keeping it afloat have been the greenspan/bernanke bubbles,
What does that mean? Greenspan didn't have a thing to do with the bubble. He did what he had to do to get the economy moving after 9/11. He can't really help it if people chose to buy more house than they could afford. The Fed has nothing to do with bubbles. Nothing.

Calling it the Greenspan bubble is like calling the Dutch Tulip Craze "the sun bubble" because the sun did what it was supposed to do every morning.
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Old 05-06-2008, 06:25 AM
 
164 posts, read 465,598 times
Reputation: 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simple Living View Post
I'd love to see people return to a bartering service so everyone could afford to get what they need. The single mother babysits for credits towards the plumber fixing her toilet, whose earning credits to "pay" for the dental work he needs done so the dentist can earn credits to "pay" for babysitting services so he can take his wife out. Every service is worth a different, but fair, amount of credit, which is stored and used for bartering. I've lived in places where people did this and it was great!
Where could you live in the US where that system was possible? I've heard of people bartering and even exchanging homes, but the IRS still wants a cut of the pie. Umm...how did they pay for their taxes?

Even if you were off the grid, had your own power, water treatment, etc. You'd still owe property taxes every year and if you exchanged services with someone else you'd owe Federal taxes. You could live in a state without income taxes so you probably wouldn't owe the State at that point for bartering.

So barring a miraculous return to sane practices by our government, I don't know where this would be possible. With the 2 party political system, I don't see how things will change, either.

This relates to the original post... As the standard of living for the average middle class person goes down, some people will look for alternate ways of living. I'd like to get out of the middle class corporate-job dependent 'rat race'. (You know its dubbed a rat race for a reason. )
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Old 05-06-2008, 08:56 AM
 
Location: Heartland Florida
9,324 posts, read 23,341,155 times
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I don't think that a monetary system should be based on debt. The money supply should be stable, no inflation so people will want to save instead of borrow. When inflation runs 10% a year and you can borrow money at 5% it's a no-brainer. In a perfect world the money would be controlled by competent economists and the interest earned collected by the Government. Taxes are unneccessary if the Government owns the Dollar. Since the 60's the beaurocrats have been busy digging us into a hole, and Greenspan has been inflating our savings away, only to have helicopter Ben do it again. No wonder people are trusting gold, a commodity that cannot increase in supply like Dollars do. Why can't we have a system that allows honest, forward-thinking people to be in charge of the monetary system? Oh yes because everyone is greedy and wants to defer responsibility to future generations.
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