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Old 05-01-2019, 09:16 AM
 
41 posts, read 5,737 times
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Most Trump haters are angry because they want socialism. The Clintons aren’t socialists, so their anger is misdirected. Trump did not prevent the installation of a command economy “progressive” agenda because that was never going to be the case with Hillary Clinton. She would have disappointed just like President Obama did for them. Not to mention a Republican majority in Senate and House (previous 2 years).

They are really angry because they can’t get the majority of Americans to support a socialist/“progressive” platform. It’s just not what this country is traditionally about.
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Old 05-01-2019, 09:43 AM
 
Location: The Triad (NC)
28,200 posts, read 61,047,009 times
Reputation: 31611
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Zoidberg View Post
Most Trump haters are angry because they want socialism.
Nope. They want transparency and integrity.
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Old 05-01-2019, 10:01 AM
 
41 posts, read 5,737 times
Reputation: 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRational View Post
Nope. They want transparency and integrity.
Nonsense. Transparency of what exactly? Tax returns?

Integrity is a buzz word based on your individual politics. I can find lots of instances where any president didn't act with "integrity" per my own standard from Washington to Obama.

You don't like Trump's politics plain and simple. You are a "progressive". Own it. He's not your guy, but maybe the next one will be.
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Old 05-01-2019, 11:19 AM
 
Location: The Triad (NC)
28,200 posts, read 61,047,009 times
Reputation: 31611
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Zoidberg View Post
You don't like Trump's politics plain and simple. Own it.
Owned. And the principle reason he's "not my guy" is that lack of integrity (and transparency).
There are a few dozen others of course but those two continue to top the list.

Quote:
He's not your guy, but maybe the next one will be.
Lets hope so. At this point even George W looks rather appealing.

Quote:
You are a "progressive".
It's worse than that! I'm an actual liberal. (shhh!)
Now reconcile that with the dystopian nightmare accusations I get for my public policy views.
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Old 05-01-2019, 01:17 PM
 
Location: East Helena, MT
807 posts, read 556,425 times
Reputation: 2163
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRational View Post
Owned. And the principle reason he's "not my guy" is that lack of integrity (and transparency).
There are a few dozen others of course but those two continue to top the list.

Lets hope so. At this point even George W looks rather appealing.

It's worse than that! I'm an actual liberal. (shhh!)
Now reconcile that with the dystopian nightmare accusations I get for my public policy views.

People don't want transparency. Every one right now is too busy being outraged about the latest data breech, or facebook selling info. They only care about transparency when it comes to Trump. It is easy, lets pass a law today that says that financial information for EVERY U.S. Citizen is public domain, and finances MUST be disclosed to ANYONE at ANYTIME if requested. Then we would have transparency, it would be fair and applied equally across the entire country. See, the problem is, we have this thing called the Constitution, it states the exact opposite. We have an inherent right to privacy, and just because you become President, it doesn't take away your Constitutional rights.


Integrity is in the eye of the beholder. I can think the actions someone takes are perfectly fine, while another person could be abhorred by their conduct.


Back to Bernie. His heart is in the right place, but the costs of his proposals would bankrupt our country, and it wouldn't have the effect he wants. Right now, any one intelligent enough to graduate college has the opportunity to go. The only people who don't go to college, are the ones not smart enough to graduate. Plain and simple. Making college free won't increase the number of college graduates, all it will do is force the less smart population to pay for a service they will never benefit from. How awesome that a future Doctor will have his college paid for by the janitor working at his hospital! The Doctor will enjoy an awesome life with his six figure salary, while the janitor will toil away, barely making it on minimum wage. That's like, really super duper fair!!!


Did anyone look at his payroll tax increases. The 4% is in addition to what we already pay. Unlike federal income tax, you don't get deductions for payroll taxes. Plus, Bernie has yet to announce the increase in Social Security taxes that are needed to make that solvent. This still won't fix the healthcare system. If we are going to move to a public system, it needs to be 100% government owned. That is the only way to control costs. It needs to be like the system in the U.K. The problem with this, is it will bankrupt the states. The states get massive amounts of tax revenue from property taxes and income taxes from insurance companies, hospitals, etc. The second you go government owned, all that money dries up. All of the stock for these companies become worthless, you know who owns tons of this stock, state pensions. In my town, the hospital is the largest private employer. That now becomes the government. I personally would love to see what happens when states like New York loose 30% of their tax revenue overnight.


So Bernie is full of it, and his policies don't have any chance of being adopted.
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Old 05-01-2019, 02:01 PM
 
41 posts, read 5,737 times
Reputation: 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRational View Post
Owned. And the principle reason he's "not my guy" is that lack of integrity (and transparency).
There are a few dozen others of course but those two continue to top the list.

Lets hope so. At this point even George W looks rather appealing.

It's worse than that! I'm an actual liberal. (shhh!)
Now reconcile that with the dystopian nightmare accusations I get for my public policy views.
I always thought progressive >>> liberals. Like the word liberal wasn’t socialist enough.

Does it bother you that former President Obama is a total sellout to the liberal cause in his post presidency lavish lifestyle? Does he have integrity? Something tells me his integrity is juuuust fine with you!
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Old 05-01-2019, 02:10 PM
 
Location: Oregon, formerly Texas
5,327 posts, read 3,655,086 times
Reputation: 8994
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Zoidberg View Post
Most Trump haters are angry because they want socialism. The Clintons aren’t socialists, so their anger is misdirected. Trump did not prevent the installation of a command economy “progressive” agenda because that was never going to be the case with Hillary Clinton. She would have disappointed just like President Obama did for them. Not to mention a Republican majority in Senate and House (previous 2 years).

They are really angry because they can’t get the majority of Americans to support a socialist/“progressive” platform. It’s just not what this country is traditionally about.
I would bet my life savings that a majority of Americans could not articulate a meaningful definition of "socialism." The public has vague, ill-defined, and contradictory views on public policy. But generally they like progressive ideas. I'll post the relevant views that people hold that comport with Bernie Sanders's positions:

Corporations and inequality:
  • 59 percent of Americans—and 43 percent of Republicans—think corporations make “too much profit.”
  • 72 percent of Americans say it is “extremely” or “very” important, and 23 percent say it is “somewhat important,” to reduce poverty.
  • 80 percent of Americans think some corporations don’t pay their fair share of taxes.
  • 76 percent believe the wealthiest Americans should pay higher taxes.
  • 66 percent of Americans think money and wealth should be distributed more evenly.


Minimum Wage:
  • 66 percent of Americans favor raising the federal minimum wage to $10.10 an hour.
  • 59 percent favor raising the federal minimum wage to $12 an hour.
  • 48 percent support raising the national minimum wage to $15 an hour. (A survey of registered voters found that 54 percent favored a $15 minimum wage.)
  • 63 percent of registered voters think the minimum wage should be adjusted each year by the rate of inflation.

Worker rights:
  • 61 percent of Americans—including 42 percent of Republicans—approve of labor unions.
  • 74 percent of registered voters—including 71 percent of Republicans—support requiring employers to offer paid parental and medical leave.

Health Care:
  • 60 percent of Americans believe “it is the federal government’s responsibility to make sure all Americans have healthcare coverage.”
  • 60 percent of registered voters favor “expanding Medicare to provide health insurance to every American.”
  • 58 percent of the public favors replacing Obamacare with “a federally funded healthcare program providing insurance for all Americans.”

Education:
  • 63 percent of registered voters—including 47 percent of Republicans—of Americans favor making four-year public colleges and universities tuition-free.
  • 59 percent of Americans favor free early-childhood education.

The article links to the polls in question: https://prospect.org/article/most-am...80%99t-know-it
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Old 05-01-2019, 03:40 PM
 
1,394 posts, read 311,542 times
Reputation: 2363
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Zoidberg View Post
Most Trump haters are angry because they want socialism.
With the release of the Mueller report, they now are upset to learn that the President of the United States of America is NOT a Russian puppet.

Let that sink in for a bit.
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Old 05-01-2019, 03:48 PM
 
41 posts, read 5,737 times
Reputation: 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by redguard57 View Post
I would bet my life savings that a majority of Americans could not articulate a meaningful definition of "socialism." The public has vague, ill-defined, and contradictory views on public policy. But generally they like progressive ideas. I'll post the relevant views that people hold that comport with Bernie Sanders's positions:

Corporations and inequality:
  • 59 percent of Americans—and 43 percent of Republicans—think corporations make “too much profit.”
  • 72 percent of Americans say it is “extremely” or “very” important, and 23 percent say it is “somewhat important,” to reduce poverty.
  • 80 percent of Americans think some corporations don’t pay their fair share of taxes.
  • 76 percent believe the wealthiest Americans should pay higher taxes.
  • 66 percent of Americans think money and wealth should be distributed more evenly.


Minimum Wage:
  • 66 percent of Americans favor raising the federal minimum wage to $10.10 an hour.
  • 59 percent favor raising the federal minimum wage to $12 an hour.
  • 48 percent support raising the national minimum wage to $15 an hour. (A survey of registered voters found that 54 percent favored a $15 minimum wage.)
  • 63 percent of registered voters think the minimum wage should be adjusted each year by the rate of inflation.

Worker rights:
  • 61 percent of Americans—including 42 percent of Republicans—approve of labor unions.
  • 74 percent of registered voters—including 71 percent of Republicans—support requiring employers to offer paid parental and medical leave.

Health Care:
  • 60 percent of Americans believe “it is the federal government’s responsibility to make sure all Americans have healthcare coverage.”
  • 60 percent of registered voters favor “expanding Medicare to provide health insurance to every American.”
  • 58 percent of the public favors replacing Obamacare with “a federally funded healthcare program providing insurance for all Americans.”

Education:
  • 63 percent of registered voters—including 47 percent of Republicans—of Americans favor making four-year public colleges and universities tuition-free.
  • 59 percent of Americans favor free early-childhood education.

The article links to the polls in question: https://prospect.org/article/most-am...80%99t-know-it
Let's assume all this is true. Then why doesn't every progressive socialist on the ballot win with more frequency? Why doesn't Bernie win in a landslide? These are strong to overwhelming majorities here you are claiming.
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Old 05-02-2019, 09:12 AM
 
Location: Oregon, formerly Texas
5,327 posts, read 3,655,086 times
Reputation: 8994
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Zoidberg View Post
Let's assume all this is true. Then why doesn't every progressive socialist on the ballot win with more frequency? Why doesn't Bernie win in a landslide? These are strong to overwhelming majorities here you are claiming.
For one, because we haven't had an overt economic populist run for office in over 50 years. Probably the closest to run on the slate of issues I posted was RFK, and he was killed.

Also because of intersectionality. Those issues were polled in a vacuum and don't exist in a vacuum. People vote for a lot of different reasons & priorities & those shift over time There are a lot of wedge issues that take priority, for example, guns or immigration. I personally know a couple guys who would be Bernie Sanders voters if not for the gun issue. They are fully convinced that Democrats want to snatch their guns from them and that's what they vote on.

I stated that the public holds many vague and contradictory views.
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