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Old 05-02-2019, 10:01 AM
 
7,993 posts, read 8,826,122 times
Reputation: 6301

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Quote:
Originally Posted by redguard57 View Post
For one, because we haven't had an overt economic populist run for office in over 50 years. Probably the closest to run on the slate of issues I posted was RFK, and he was killed.

Also because of intersectionality. Those issues were polled in a vacuum and don't exist in a vacuum. People vote for a lot of different reasons & priorities & those shift over time There are a lot of wedge issues that take priority, for example, guns or immigration. I personally know a couple guys who would be Bernie Sanders voters if not for the gun issue. They are fully convinced that Democrats want to snatch their guns from them and that's what they vote on.

I stated that the public holds many vague and contradictory views.
That's an excellent post overall. By way of agreeing with you data points are just that data points not................I support robust public K-12 education, Karl Marx loved the idea of public education* - he enumerated as much in The Communist Manifesto. I'm certainly not a communist. And so on.

To be accurate Marx desired iron fisted central-government control of public schools.

___________

I'm not sure about Bernie and guns because he's typically very evasive on the topic. Swalwell has been direct in that he wants to confiscate many semi-automatic rifles. BTW he keeps pushing the utterly false canard that guns like the AR-15 are weapons of war. No one with a choice is going into combat with an AR-15.
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Old 05-02-2019, 10:11 AM
 
Location: East Helena, MT
807 posts, read 556,425 times
Reputation: 2163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Zoidberg View Post
Let's assume all this is true. Then why doesn't every progressive socialist on the ballot win with more frequency? Why doesn't Bernie win in a landslide? These are strong to overwhelming majorities here you are claiming.


Because the second part of the question never gets asked. Are you willing to give 50% of YOUR income to the government to pay for these proposals. Ask that question, and then see how many people say yes. Many independent organizations put the cost to the middle class at about 50% of total income.


In 2018 the average American had a total tax burden of 31.7%. This includes all taxes paid, payroll, income, sales, property, etc.


This chart is located at https://taxfoundation.org/comparison...bor-oecd-2018/


Countries with socialized medicine/education pay much higher taxes overall, not just the rich as the Democrats like to point out. If you notice, most of the taxes are collected from payroll taxes, not income tax. This is important because you don't receive tax deductions or credits on payroll taxes, they affect everyone who works, equally.


CountryRankTax Wedge Including VAT %Income tax %Social Security Contributions %VAT %Average Labor Costs Including VATBelgium157.219.130.67.5$81,355Germany253.714.73 0.98.1$82,561Austria352.110.232.99.0$81,273Hungary 452.010.830.310.8$36,018France551.510.233.97.4$70, 541Italy651.015.529.36.3$60,781Sweden748.812.326.2 10.2$69,771Czech Republic848.58.930.59.1$40,612Slovenia948.59.129.7 9.8$40,422Finland1048.315.423.49.5$66,213Latvia114 7.514.125.48.1$29,276
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Old 05-02-2019, 01:10 PM
 
587 posts, read 137,819 times
Reputation: 855
Quote:
Originally Posted by c charlie View Post
Non American here, so forgive my ignorance

Just read an article in Huff post about Bernie Sanders becoming a millionaire. To be honest I'm not entirely sure what a Bernie Sanders might be.

The term 'progressive taxation" was mentioned, as if the US doesn't have it. I always assumed US had a progressive tax system. IE the higher your income ,the higher the percentage tax you pay.

Eg in Oz, below a certain income, no income tax is payable. Minimum rate is 35%, then it goes up to 42%. I forget the maximum rate. Of course rich people pay nothing like that.

There is saying here "I want to be rich enough not to pay taxes"

I know the economist Keynes is out of favour. Not with me. That's because in the great financial meltdown, governments all over the world defaulted to Keynesian economics to deal with the problem. Instead of allowing the market to adjust, governments made massive loans to business.

MY POINT; Keynes said that for a healthy economy, 3 things are needed;

Full employment ;defined as no more than 3% unemployed

High wages

HighTaxation
I call it American fascism Here, the people with money want special treatment from the govt. regarding funding and taxes.
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Old 05-02-2019, 02:46 PM
 
Location: Oregon, formerly Texas
5,327 posts, read 3,655,086 times
Reputation: 8994
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericsvibe View Post
Because the second part of the question never gets asked. Are you willing to give 50% of YOUR income to the government to pay for these proposals. Ask that question, and then see how many people say yes. Many independent organizations put the cost to the middle class at about 50% of total income.


In 2018 the average American had a total tax burden of 31.7%. This includes all taxes paid, payroll, income, sales, property, etc.


This chart is located at https://taxfoundation.org/comparison...bor-oecd-2018/


Countries with socialized medicine/education pay much higher taxes overall, not just the rich as the Democrats like to point out. If you notice, most of the taxes are collected from payroll taxes, not income tax. This is important because you don't receive tax deductions or credits on payroll taxes, they affect everyone who works, equally.


CountryRankTax Wedge Including VAT %Income tax %Social Security Contributions %VAT %Average Labor Costs Including VATBelgium157.219.130.67.5$81,355Germany253.714.73 0.98.1$82,561Austria352.110.232.99.0$81,273Hungary 452.010.830.310.8$36,018France551.510.233.97.4$70, 541Italy651.015.529.36.3$60,781Sweden748.812.326.2 10.2$69,771Czech Republic848.58.930.59.1$40,612Slovenia948.59.129.7 9.8$40,422Finland1048.315.423.49.5$66,213Latvia114 7.514.125.48.1$29,276
Add health insurance premiums and that does push to 50%.
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Old 05-02-2019, 03:41 PM
 
8,747 posts, read 3,828,405 times
Reputation: 1710
Quote:
Originally Posted by redguard57 View Post
Add health insurance premiums and that does push to 50%.
That's why with next election you'll be hearing more about a people's QE or equivalent to help bolster the middle class. Probably both from the Dems and from Trump, with different nuances.
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Old Today, 04:15 AM
 
2,816 posts, read 3,893,341 times
Reputation: 3163
Your first mistake was in reading HuffPost. One should really only print out their articles to line the bottom of the bird cage.



Bernie Sanders has never held a real job. He lives inside his head in some fantasy land that doesn't exist in reality
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Old Today, 06:58 AM
 
7,993 posts, read 8,826,122 times
Reputation: 6301
Quote:
Originally Posted by c charlie View Post
Non American here, so forgive my ignorance

Just read an article in Huff post about Bernie Sanders becoming a millionaire. To be honest I'm not entirely sure what a Bernie Sanders might be.

The term 'progressive taxation" was mentioned, as if the US doesn't have it. I always assumed US had a progressive tax system. IE the higher your income ,the higher the percentage tax you pay.

Eg in Oz, below a certain income, no income tax is payable. Minimum rate is 35%, then it goes up to 42%. I forget the maximum rate. Of course rich people pay nothing like that.

There is saying here "I want to be rich enough not to pay taxes"

I know the economist Keynes is out of favour. Not with me. That's because in the great financial meltdown, governments all over the world defaulted to Keynesian economics to deal with the problem. Instead of allowing the market to adjust, governments made massive loans to business.

MY POINT; Keynes said that for a healthy economy, 3 things are needed;

Full employment ;defined as no more than 3% unemployed

High wages

HighTaxation
Where did you come up with the stuff about Keynes?

1). Keynes, more than once, said and implied that aggregate taxation should be around 23-25% of GDP. Further, that tax rates should be increased when the economy is overheating and in times and taxes should be decreased in times of slack demand.

The US and Oz are each currently way over Keynes' prefered level of taxation.

2). Keynes did not say that 97% employment was full employment either. He thought of FE as whatever the number was when more or less everyone who wanted a job had one.

3). I'm not sure he ever argued for broadly "high wages" either, in fact I'm pretty sure he didn't. What he did do was shoot a massive hole in the "Classical" notion that in times of low employment wages should be lowered so that firms would hire more people.
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