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Old 06-22-2019, 08:48 AM
 
19,604 posts, read 17,892,755 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kanonka View Post
Hmm, let me summarize...
You lived your best years (while you were young) the way that even in 3rd would countries would be considered poverty - just to get some money when you are 50+.

You know, there is a saying: "if you didn't have a bike when you were a child, you can have a Mercedes when you grow up, but ... you still didn't have a bike".

Way to go for the "most rich" country in the world...
That's absurd.

Poverty across much of the world means a lack of running water, open pit/trench sanitary sewers if any sewers at all, seasonal to pressistant lack of enough calories for WHO standard weight maintenance per sex and age, near zero access to doctors or nurses, limited access to vaccines, high levels of stunted growth among children, high numbers how never meet their height potential all with little chance to improve one's lot over time.

Poverty here for most means some of the following high levels of spending on drugs and or booze, a car, color TV(s), more than enough food, obesity/overweight etc. with plenty of potential to improve one's lot over time.
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Old 06-22-2019, 09:21 AM
 
Location: Oregon, formerly Texas
10,022 posts, read 7,183,732 times
Reputation: 17121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quietude View Post
Well... you're into some awfully Soviet notions about career destiny. Even recognizing that the current "need a four-year to shovel manure" mentality is crazy, I think assigning people to a career path at 14 - or even 18 - is a bit draconian.

A friend just had a son start at Notre Dame... which does not require a major declaration until the sophomore year. Now THAT'S a sensible policy.


No, but at least it gives them all a... <rimshot> place to go!
I do think we need to be doing better at recognizing aptitude & personality at a younger age and using that to steer people in better career directions. The K-12 system is oriented toward getting people into college, and a lot of college majors are oriented toward...more college (grad school, etc..).

I remember when I graduated college, it was basically "good luck!" and I felt pretty lost for quite a while. I don't get the sense much has changed. My professors had the best advice for either their former careers (if academics was their 2nd career) or how to get into grad school. Which makes sense of course, since their profession was academics. But still, what I was most prepared for was more school.

All this would require buy-in and effort from the private sector, however, and in my experience they don't play all that well with colleges, tend to complain about them more than anything else.
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Old 06-22-2019, 01:17 PM
 
10,609 posts, read 5,594,229 times
Reputation: 18903
Quote:
Originally Posted by redguard57 View Post
I do think we need to be doing better at recognizing aptitude & personality at a younger age and using that to steer people in better career directions.
I recall some high schools having 3 tracks: Industrial, Secretarial, and College.

Over the past 50-ish years, there has been a substantial reduction of that tracking, mostly due to concerns that individual students steered to trades had much darker skin, on average, than those who were steered to college.

At the same time, I do think its possible to do it without running afoul of civil rights legislation. Just requires effort.
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Old 06-22-2019, 02:57 PM
 
Location: Aurora Denveralis
8,712 posts, read 6,710,817 times
Reputation: 13502
Quote:
Originally Posted by RationalExpectations View Post
I recall some high schools having 3 tracks: Industrial, Secretarial, and College.

Over the past 50-ish years, there has been a substantial reduction of that tracking, mostly due to concerns that individual students steered to trades had much darker skin, on average, than those who were steered to college.

At the same time, I do think its possible to do it without running afoul of civil rights legislation. Just requires effort.
Concur/memory agreement on the first two points. And before those of tawny complexion were so steered, it was the lesser breeds of European - Slavic, Irish etc. (I'm writing right now about labor in the 1880s-1920s, and the shockingly casual attitude that only "native Americans" - those of English, German, Dutch extraction etc. - could be promoted into foreman and manager positions over these surly immigrants is rampant.)

But I disagree about setting tracks too early. If anything, high school should focus 100% on producing educated adults capable of critical thinking and exercising practical skills... and two years of college should be allowed before choosing a major and a career.

I sincerely think few things have done more damage to us as a nation than 17yos looking at the stats for what jobs will be hot in five years and locking themselves into that path. (Not in a vacuum; as part of an entire view of socioeconomic life.) But someone stoutly and smugly presented that as The Solution just recently, maybe back in this thread. I lose track.
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Old 06-24-2019, 11:03 AM
 
Location: East of Seattle since 1992, 615' Elevation, Zone 8b - originally from SF Bay Area
44,315 posts, read 80,617,609 times
Reputation: 57316
Quote:
Originally Posted by redguard57 View Post
I do think we need to be doing better at recognizing aptitude & personality at a younger age and using that to steer people in better career directions. The K-12 system is oriented toward getting people into college, and a lot of college majors are oriented toward...more college (grad school, etc..).

I remember when I graduated college, it was basically "good luck!" and I felt pretty lost for quite a while. I don't get the sense much has changed. My professors had the best advice for either their former careers (if academics was their 2nd career) or how to get into grad school. Which makes sense of course, since their profession was academics. But still, what I was most prepared for was more school.

All this would require buy-in and effort from the private sector, however, and in my experience they don't play all that well with colleges, tend to complain about them more than anything else.
That is a big problem, most college majors are not preparing people for a real world job. What would help a lot would be for colleges to provide guest speakers from the industry that hires people with that degree to talk about what they do and what they consider the key knowledge and skills they look for in hiring. This would also help steer students into jobs they would enjoy, when they find out what it's really like to do that kind of work. It won't happen, though, because it requires the professor to admit that he/she doesn't know everything.
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Old 06-24-2019, 11:19 AM
 
Location: Aurora Denveralis
8,712 posts, read 6,710,817 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hemlock140 View Post
That is a big problem, most college majors are not preparing people for a real world job. What would help a lot would be for colleges to provide guest speakers from the industry that hires people with that degree to talk about what they do and what they consider the key knowledge and skills they look for in hiring. This would also help steer students into jobs they would enjoy, when they find out what it's really like to do that kind of work. It won't happen, though, because it requires the professor to admit that he/she doesn't know everything.
For the notion of universities as job-ticket generators, this is a fine idea.

Less so, perhaps, for actual... education as we know it. Or used to.

I suggest that all STEM education be moved to trade schools. Very, very fancy trade schools, but out of colleges and universities as we know them. Then it could be taught as what it is, rushed technical-trade training with a short initial shelf life, without all the trappings and deadweight of actually learning anything else.
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Old 06-24-2019, 03:13 PM
 
Location: The Triad
34,090 posts, read 82,696,341 times
Reputation: 43655
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hemlock140 View Post
That is a big problem, most college majors are not preparing people for a real world job.
Too many go to college without the ability to support themselves adequately.
Admission (for most) should require real competence in a life supporting skill.
Use the college resources and experience for education.
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Old 06-25-2019, 02:30 AM
 
745 posts, read 477,603 times
Reputation: 1775
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quietude View Post
For the notion of universities as job-ticket generators, this is a fine idea.

Less so, perhaps, for actual... education as we know it. Or used to.

I suggest that all STEM education be moved to trade schools. Very, very fancy trade schools, but out of colleges and universities as we know them. Then it could be taught as what it is, rushed technical-trade training with a short initial shelf life, without all the trappings and deadweight of actually learning anything else.
I like the idea of STEM type trade schools, but I also think there needs to be a certain amount of competency in other areas, such as language and math skills that a student needs before they can progress into the STEM focused curriculum.
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Old 06-25-2019, 09:22 AM
 
Location: Aurora Denveralis
8,712 posts, read 6,710,817 times
Reputation: 13502
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlmostSeniorinNJ View Post
I like the idea of STEM type trade schools, but I also think there needs to be a certain amount of competency in other areas, such as language and math skills that a student needs before they can progress into the STEM focused curriculum.
I said that above. High school should turn out young adults fully educated in the basics of life and social interaction. Universities should continue education. Trade schools should teach job skills.
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Old 06-25-2019, 11:35 PM
 
Location: Oregon, formerly Texas
10,022 posts, read 7,183,732 times
Reputation: 17121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quietude View Post
For the notion of universities as job-ticket generators, this is a fine idea.

Less so, perhaps, for actual... education as we know it. Or used to.

I suggest that all STEM education be moved to trade schools. Very, very fancy trade schools, but out of colleges and universities as we know them. Then it could be taught as what it is, rushed technical-trade training with a short initial shelf life, without all the trappings and deadweight of actually learning anything else.
There are people here who would put Socrates, Thomas Aquinas, and Thomas Jefferson out on the street because they didn't learn a specific job skill.
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