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Old 05-23-2019, 12:28 PM
 
241 posts, read 217,007 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mysticaltyger View Post
I think what we need is real free market capitalism. What we have now has been described as Cartel-ism, whee we have only limited competition in many industries.

At least the OPEC oil cartel is honest about what it is. We also have a health care cartel and a banking cartel. We're headed for a retail cartel as well.

You do realize that cartels and monopolies form by themselves all the time even in a true free market. Especially in a true unregulated free market. Heck, Warren Buffett made his billions by betting on monopolies.


There is this persistent notion that the magic of unregulated free market will "cure all" and will act as a self-balancing system. Which is actually true in most parts. It does work awesomely well in a Darwinian "survival of the fittest" kind of way, and forms a natural equilibrium based on efficient and competitive companies.


Take Google and Facebook and ebay and Uber/Lyft and Microsoft for example. None of these monopolies have enjoyed any kind of government support to establish their monopolies. However, all of them rapidly went on to become very very firm monopolies all on their own. To the extent that most startup companies and even wealthy companies don't even try to compete with them anymore.


Or take Western Europe for example. They too have a very healthy capitalistic society, regardless of how Americans paint them out to be socialistic borderline communist kind of economies. They have true capitalistic societies where companies perform and grow and compete just like American companies and startups do.


But they also have sensible regulations and laws and oversight from legal agencies that prevent them from abusing monopoly status or customer privacy etc.


True unregulated free market is like a society without laws. You can wish for utopia where everyone is kind and gentle and self-regulating but the truth is that humans are ugly creatures that hoard and abuse power to perpetuate their power and wealth. If they feel they can get away with illegal stuff, they will.
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Old 05-23-2019, 12:30 PM
 
3,114 posts, read 799,958 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Disgustedman View Post
Frankly, no other system offers so much to those who strive and seek to make money.

If you strive for wealth, you can do it via investing, gambling, working.

Capitalism rewards hard work, inventiveness and a willing to sacrifice today for benefits of tomorrow...Sure the wealthy have it good and have taken advantage of positions. But they started like everyone else...they started poor. Their predecessors were careful in teaching them to be careful with money and how to invest.

Now I agree that it would be nice if they'd give some of their fortunes to the public good. But then many already do. Without force they give away much. The thing make makes me shake my head is the demand they give more.

I don't make big bucks, but quite often I will buy 96 cup o noodles packs (12 to a case) and drop them off at a homeless outreach. I can't solve every issue and even if we had enough money to do so, we'd still not solve them as it also is the individual who is the main link in this. Find a willing worker, you have a start, have an unwilling worker, you have a leech.

This is why I feel the govt shouldn't be involved. I'd LOVE it if the insurance companies could sell across state lines and to whoever wants it. I'd like to simplify it. Have charges for going to the doctor, but insurance covers all hospital events.

I'm leaning to tort reform, but not too sure that's what we need...

Still, this is the best country to become a millionaire in. I kind of wonder how anyone going into Congress, can go in at 175K a year and within 10-20 years, be a multi-millionaire...
That's why I haven't entertained the idea of moving elsewhere. Just because we may be the best at something, may not mean you're perfect, but it also doesn't mean you shouldn't strive to do better. I post what I post to put some awareness in people's minds that there is most certainly a way to be an hourly worker and have everything you need. You have to fight for it. But you have negotiating power. YOU are the means of production for that company and their current work orders outstanding. But people have vilified that lifestyle as greed and persist in telling us that everything we want is just out of reach. "If you only . . . "

I am not a proponent of delayed gratification, or counting on an a fraction of a fraction's chance at promotion to bring me a certain lifestyle. Waiting 2 weeks for my hours worked to be converted into a paycheck is long enough for me
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Old 05-23-2019, 12:45 PM
 
Location: Aurora Denveralis
8,082 posts, read 2,816,523 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Disgustedman View Post
Still, this is the best country to become a millionaire in.
That's a nebulous claim, but if you mean it's the easiest country in which to cross the vague 'millionaire' line, I don't think it's correct.

If you mean it's a great country in which to be exceptionally well off... no real argument.

Here's one datum, chosen to exclude countries full of rich ex-pats (e.g. limit the numbers to mostly natives with wealth):

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Old 05-23-2019, 01:07 PM
 
3,758 posts, read 3,481,917 times
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Cortez needs to spend some serious quality time in Venezuela.
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Old 05-23-2019, 01:09 PM
 
3,114 posts, read 799,958 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quietude View Post
That's a nebulous claim, but if you mean it's the easiest country in which to cross the vague 'millionaire' line, I don't think it's correct.

If you mean it's a great country in which to be exceptionally well off... no real argument.

Here's one datum, chosen to exclude countries full of rich ex-pats (e.g. limit the numbers to mostly natives with wealth):
Norway, Sweden, Denmark have populations similar to a major US state, but the $$$ per individual is likely so much higher because 1. they have higher prices on basically everything, and 2. the minimum wage is very high (not saying this is always the correct response to rising prices), and there is international tourism (much like CA/NY). A lot of visitors spending money at levels they can tolerate for 2 weeks, but not year-round.

Can't speak for Canada, don't know their situation, but I have read about lots of lucrative blue collar industries still thrive up that way. Mining, automotive, ENERGY... I suppose it's the same, where the majority of your population feeds off anchor cities and industries supporting other industries. But no one does rural like the US. The other 4 countries have rural areas, (Canada especially), but the US has oh-so-many people living in lower wage / lower CoL states that we are probably bumped down a few rungs on that fact alone.
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Old 05-23-2019, 01:09 PM
 
Location: Aurora Denveralis
8,082 posts, read 2,816,523 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blisterpeanuts View Post
Cortez needs to spend some serious quality time in Venezuela.
Oh, you caught that on the Fox News crawl, too, did you?
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Old 05-23-2019, 01:11 PM
 
Location: Aurora Denveralis
8,082 posts, read 2,816,523 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ddm2k View Post
Norway, Sweden, Denmark have populations similar to a major US state, but the $$$ per individual is likely so much higher because 1. they have higher prices on basically everything, and 2. the minimum wage is very high (not saying this is always the correct response to rising prices), and there is international tourism (much like CA/NY).
None of which has much to do with the number of wealthy or their rise to that status.

The US is fairly far down the list in "making millionaires" no matter how you choose or slice the data. It's a self-serving, blinkered myth that we're either the only or the best country for 'making it big.'

I don't think we're even that great at going from 'poor' to 'making it,' either. But the myth persists, and Joe Q. Lunchbucket will defend the rights of the rich until he falls off his barstool... cuz bigod someday he'sa gonna be rich too.
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Old 05-23-2019, 01:16 PM
 
304 posts, read 141,738 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quietude View Post
Capitalism is about as broken as it's been since the robber baron days. It needs thorough reform and far more rigid control.

We can ignore the idiots who think it needs to be thrown out.
Sure . . . the feudal lords once argued that feudalism just needed "thorough reform and far more rigid control."
And before that, the Roman slave owners said the same thing concerning slave ownership.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mysticaltyger View Post
I think what we need is real free market capitalism. What we have now has been described as Cartel-ism, whee we have only limited competition in many industries.
There is no such thing as "real free market capitalism." There really isn't and never has been. The purpose of capitalism is "capital accumulation." One of the best ways to ensure capital accumulation is the formation of monopolies -- today, we call this monopoly capitalism. Capitalists don't like to compete -- they want all of each market. Because of anti-trust laws, there were once seven "Bell" telephone companies. Now no longer.

https://www.vox.com/2018/11/26/18112...-concentration
https://openmarketsinstitute.org/exp...y-the-numbers/

And capitalist corporations collude in the form of price fixing -- ranging from commody products (music CDs) to financial rates: https://www.rollingstone.com/politic...al-ever-82255/

And the market isn't self-correcting, despite the pre-financial collapse statements of Allen Greenspan and others economists and leaders in the financial industries.

Big business is constantly looking for the government to give them handouts and subsidies to improve their bottom line. Corporate welfare provides these businesses advantages in the marketplace over their competitors, and often prevent new startups from challenging the status quo. Suppression of competition is standard operating procedure -- that doesn't sound like the working of a free market.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer View Post
Capitalism is the most successful economic system in the history of humankind. It will not go away anytime soon. The United States will remain a capitalist country for a long time to come.
In terms of production, capitalism is the most successful economic system in history. And capitalism has many other successes:
1) Most successful at creating income inequality, which destroys even the concept of democracy.
2) most successful at putting profit over people
3) most successful at contributing to global warming and destroying the ocean and land masses of planet earth
4) most successful at exploiting both the natural resources and labor resources around the world, leading to environmental degradation (e.g., Texaco's pollution of Ecuadoran rain forest -- just google it to see the mess) and the impoverishment of workers (e.g., sweat shops, low wages, long hours, lack of safety standards in factories, etc.)

Don't complain about the cost of an EpiPen, which exploded in cost: https://www.latimes.com/business/laz...605-story.html
Or the HIV drug that costs 2,000 in the U.S. but a generic sells for 8.00 in Australia: https://thehill.com/homenews/house/4...hat-costs-8-in

These two illustrations show capitalism at work. Often it is research funded by the government and taxes that is then "bought" by a private industry and then sold back to the people (Epipen was developed by the military: https://www.healthline.com/health-ne...ry-of-epipen#1

How many examples do I need to cite to get the point across? Just be glad (if) you aren't a diabetic, considering the cost of insulin in the U.S.: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-47491964

We are now living in a second gilded age, and income inequality in the U.S. has never been higher. All because of sogennant "free market capitalism." And a growing problem of homeless people, student debt, exploding prison population, etc.

Capitalism in America is a religious ideology; GNP and a rising stock market are seen as a barometer of happy and prospering society. Where does this perspective come from -- well, it is likely spun by the top ten percent, who happen to own -- a whopping -- 84% of all stock: https://www.politifact.com/californi...ns-own-stocks/

I believe there is a solution, but I don't believe that capitalism as a system is reformable . . . any more than trickle down economics [sic] works.
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Old 05-23-2019, 01:16 PM
 
Location: East Coast of the United States
17,075 posts, read 19,415,512 times
Reputation: 12798
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quietude View Post
That's a nebulous claim, but if you mean it's the easiest country in which to cross the vague 'millionaire' line, I don't think it's correct.

If you mean it's a great country in which to be exceptionally well off... no real argument.

Here's one datum, chosen to exclude countries full of rich ex-pats (e.g. limit the numbers to mostly natives with wealth):
Population size is what it’s all about. The United States is many times larger than all those other countries.
And those are among the richest countries in the world.

About 40% of all the world’s millionaires live in the United States.
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Old 05-23-2019, 01:19 PM
 
3,114 posts, read 799,958 times
Reputation: 3635
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quietude View Post
None of which has much to do with the number of wealthy or their rise to that status.

The US is fairly far down the list in "making millionaires" no matter how you choose or slice the data. It's a self-serving, blinkered myth that we're either the only or the best country for 'making it big.'

I don't think we're even that great at going from 'poor' to 'making it,' either. But the myth persists, and Joe Q. Lunchbucket will defend the rights of the rich until he falls off his barstool... cuz bigod someday he'sa gonna be rich too.
The formula for the data is "Number of residents with a net worth of greater than $30M USD, per million residents"

I wonder why they chose to put in the "per million residents"? It sounds like if they did not, the US would have the highest absolute number of $30+ MM. Perhaps, they found a metric that can make the US look bad for its "the rich get richer and the poor have kids" trend.

To my point in my previous post, we DO have a LOT of people working low wage jobs.
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