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Old 06-19-2019, 09:02 AM
 
Location: ATL, GA
1,170 posts, read 673,522 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thatsright19 View Post
Oh but you 1970s people must have been real spoiled compared to the 1870s


Hell, you people had cars. Would you have been willing to drive and pick up wood for heat in your horse and buggy? Iím sure all those modern house hold appliance conveniences could have reduced your cost then too! Nothing saves money like using a washboard.
Why do I feel like this is about to get racial
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Old 06-19-2019, 09:05 AM
 
20,079 posts, read 11,142,800 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KathrynAragon View Post
For starters it's not just one high school - all the high schools funnel those students interested in the trades toward this specialized school for the trades. And I am glad to see it! NO STIGMA. No racial profiling.
That doesn't change my point. My point is that if the proportions were correct, there would be only one high school with a college-prep curriculum and all the others would be tech-prep high schools.

Preparation for technical vocations should comprise the bulk of the community education effort. It shouldn't be a special program, it should be the main program. College prep should be the special program.

Now, let me make another point: It should not be a "school for the trades." It should be a technical preparation school. A tech-prep curriculum would no more teach a kid to be a plumber than a college prep curriculum teaches a kid specifically to be a lawyer.

The curriculum would consist of applied algebra and plane geometry, technical reading, small business economics and law, mechanics, electronics, hydraulics, more applied algebra and plane geometry, more technical reading. By graduation, the student would be fully prepared for any kind of more specialized technical training.
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Old 06-19-2019, 09:08 AM
 
Location: Wonderland
44,656 posts, read 36,118,702 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
No, today's median personal income is $31,000 per year. The median family income is $60,000 a year.
I was talking about median household income in both the 1970s and now.
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Old 06-19-2019, 09:12 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KathrynAragon View Post
I was talking about median household income in both the 1970s and now.
And that was because in 1970 most households were still one-income households, so the comparison is not $10,000 to $60,000, it's $10,000 to $30,000. The value of labor per hour still works out much higher in 1970.
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Old 06-19-2019, 09:17 AM
 
Location: Wonderland
44,656 posts, read 36,118,702 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
That doesn't change my point. My point is that if the proportions were correct, there would be only one high school with a college-prep curriculum and all the others would be tech-prep high schools.

Now, let me make another point: It should not be a "school for the trades." It should be a technical preparation school. A tech-prep curriculum would no more teach a kid to be a plumber than a college prep curriculum teaches a kid specifically to be a lawyer.

The curriculum would consist of applied algebra and plane geometry, technical reading, small business economics and law, mechanics, electronics, hydraulics, more applied algebra and plane geometry, more technical reading. By graduation, the student would be fully prepared for any kind of more specialized technical training.
You said D students. Not me. How many D students would excel at the curriculum you are describing? Not that I think that curriculum is a bad idea. In fact, it's a great idea and part of what is being offered here locally, thank goodness. But not all students are able to grasp those concepts any more than they are, say, statistics or computer science college prep courses - or they simply are not interested in those topics. So other classes are also offered - for instance, professional cooking/chef classes for those students interested in food service or being a professional chef.

My point was that our local high schools allow students both opportunities - they don't offer "only" college prep "or" trade/tech/whatever you want to call it. And I'm glad to see it. Better late than never. And it's not a place where D students are channeled because they don't have what it takes to go on to "regular college." It's not assuming that one career path is superior to the other or for "better" students.

We need professional plumbers by the way, there's nothing wrong with someone learning that skill and working in that field. And they may not have ever taken an advanced math course or a technical reading course, and I'm fine with that too, as long as they can fix my toilet, which I will pay them well to do. It's certainly above my pay grade, that's for sure. I had hell changing out the little chain thingie.
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Old 06-19-2019, 09:39 AM
 
Location: Wonderland
44,656 posts, read 36,118,702 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
And that was because in 1970 most households were still one-income households, so the comparison is not $10,000 to $60,000, it's $10,000 to $30,000. The value of labor per hour still works out much higher in 1970.
In 1970, 39 percent of families were two income families. Now it's 46 percent - a 7 percent increase. That means that believe it or not, still over half of families do not have two incomes coming in. I just wanted to point that out because it's a common misconception that "most" households today have two parents working full time.

Also, as has been pointed out on various threads, "middle class" today has a higher cost of living at least in part due to higher expectations of what people consider "necessities." For instance, homes are at least 1000 square feet bigger though families are smaller. My family was squarely middle class for instance, back in the 1970s - my mother didn't work outside the home and my dad had a white collar job - but my brother and I shared a room and that was considered very normal. I mean, we had a three bedroom house (no office and no man cave by the way) and so my parents had a bedroom, our youngest brother was a baby and had a tiny bedroom to himself, and then my middle brother and I shared a room. Our house was about 1500 square feet and in a neighborhood of similar homes and we were all middle class Americans.

Bigger homes, multiple phones, multiple vehicles, expensive vacations - all that and more costs a lot of money, and generally those are "perks" that are "expected" within the middle class today.

I just want to point out that our two daughters along with their husbands decided that they'd like to try the stay at home Mom thing a few years ago. They did so. They are still doing so. It's working out great so far for both families but it was a big adjustment.

For instance, my oldest daughter has three teenage girls. They don't have cell phones. Mom and Dad have cell phones, and when they go out on date night or whatever, they leave one cell phone with the kids. OH. MY. GOSH. How do they live? Oh, and the oldest daughter works part time - and she doesn't have a vehicle or a cell phone - the horror! She catches the bus and then walks fifteen minutes to work. You know what - her grandfather (my daughter's dad) rode his bicycle to work for years - and he was a white collar professional. Maybe that's where she got the idea, I don't know. Anyway, where there's a will there's a way. When I was growing up, we only had one vehicle too. And we had it nearly my entire childhood - and when I started driving, that's the car I got - with 430,000 miles on it! And I had to share it with my mom! LOL How did I even survive...
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Old 06-19-2019, 09:47 AM
 
20,079 posts, read 11,142,800 times
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[quote=KathrynAragon;55462691]You said D students. Not me. How many D students would excel at the curriculum you are describing? [quote]

I said that counselors still encouraged even D students to go to college, the the presumption being that they were D students in a college-prep curriculum.

Back in the mid 90s, the governor of Hawaii looked at his state's high school curriculum, compared it with the industries actually available to Hawaii residents, and pronounced, "High school in Hawaii is a waste of time. And the students know it."

I believe that if a true, robust technical prep curriculum was broadly available from the ninth grade--and not implied as a booby prize by counselors, but the normal curriculum for most kids--there would be tremendously more kids successful in high school.

Quote:
Not that I think that curriculum is a bad idea. In fact, it's a great idea and part of what is being offered here locally, thank goodness. But not all students are able to grasp those concepts any more than they are, say, statistics or computer science college prep courses - or they simply are not interested in those topics. So other classes are also offered - for instance, professional cooking/chef classes for those students interested in food service or being a professional chef.
"Food service" is a heck of lot more than just cooking.

The kid may not realize it, but those adults who create his curriculum ought to realize it. He needs to know not just the technicalities of cooking, but also how to manage a kitchen or a restaurant. He still needs applied algebra, he still needs technical reading, he still needs business math and accounting, he still needs small business law, et cetera.

Quote:
We need professional plumbers by the way, there's nothing wrong with someone learning that skill and working in that field. And they may not have ever taken an advanced math course or a technical reading course, and I'm fine with that too, as long as they can fix my toilet, which I will pay them well to do. It's certainly above my pay grade, that's for sure. I had hell changing out the little chain thingie.
The kid who thinks he wants to be a plumber still needs to know how to comprehend multi-layered and arcane plumbing codes. He still needs to know how to calculate vent pipe diameters and waste pipe maximum lengths based on the number of devices on the line. He still needs to know how to accurately calculate estimates and ordering requirements. He still needs to know how to run a small business.

That kid who wants to be a plumber still needs applied algebra, he still needs technical reading, he still needs business math and accounting, he still needs small business law, et cetera.
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Old 06-19-2019, 09:56 AM
 
Location: Wonderland
44,656 posts, read 36,118,702 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
I said that counselors still encouraged even D students to go to college, the the presumption being that they were D students in a college-prep curriculum.

Back in the mid 90s, the governor of Hawaii looked at his state's high school curriculum, compared it with the industries actually available to Hawaii residents, and pronounced, "High school in Hawaii is a waste of time. And the students know it."

I believe that if a true, robust technical prep curriculum was broadly available from the ninth grade--and not implied as a booby prize by counselors, but the normal curriculum for most kids--there would be tremendously more kids successful in high school.



"Food service" is a heck of lot more than just cooking.

The kid may not realize it, but those adults who create his curriculum ought to realize it. He needs to know not just the technicalities of cooking, but also how to manage a kitchen or a restaurant. He still needs applied algebra, he still needs technical reading, he still needs business math and accounting, he still needs small business law, et cetera.



The kid who thinks he wants to be a plumber still needs to know how to comprehend multi-layered and arcane plumbing codes. He still needs to know how to calculate vent pipe diameters and waste pipe maximum lengths based on the number of devices on the line. He still needs to know how to accurately calculate estimates and ordering requirements. He still needs to know how to run a small business.

That kid who wants to be a plumber still needs applied algebra, he still needs technical reading, he still needs business math and accounting, he still needs small business law, et cetera.
Sigh. I realize that "food service" is a heck of a lot more than just cooking - and I didn't say or imply that that's all it is.

I think you are nitpicking what I'm saying and in reality we agree on more points than we disagree on.

And I get that kids SHOULD have the opportunity to learn these skills such as management, advanced math, legal principles for small businesses, etc. I have never said otherwise. My point though is that schools ought to OFFER a wider range of classes that also apply to those students who choose a blue collar profession. But I also realize that some students will simply not grasp such concepts and that's OK too. We need to take away the implied shame of work with one's hands, or work that gets someone dirty or whatever. We need all levels of skill and we have students today with all levels of aptitude. We have the people, we have the need - let's meet it. Let's help more students reach their potential, and let's realize that not everyone has the same goals, interests, abilities, etc. and that's OK too.
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Old 06-19-2019, 10:25 AM
 
Location: Wonderland
44,656 posts, read 36,118,702 times
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To reiterate - not all students have the aptitude or the desire to be white collar professionals and this does not make their skills less necessary or less noble - and not even necessarily less of an income over the long haul. We are selling a disservice to our students as well as our society when we disregard the trades - at any level - as inferior, especially when it comes to status, success (very ambiguous term there), room for individual advancement if that's what one desires and will work toward, or even compensation.

Another example: I have two brothers. One has no college degree, but was raised with a good work ethic and the drive to be self sufficient, even to the point of leaving home at 17 and joining the Marines (can't say I'd recommend that but it worked for him). He became a welder. He never worked as an independent contractor and never wanted to. He was never self employed. He has always wanted to work for a company, be a part of a union, be an employee, etc. Now he is a warehouse manager and still an employee and that's how he likes it, how he wants it, and I think he would tell you he has been successful. Was he "college material?" I don't know but what I do know is that the very idea of continuing on to college and then into a white collar job just broke his heart.

I have another brother, much younger than us. He has a bachelor's degree and wants a master's degree. Why? Because he likes going to school. In fact, he's nearly done with his master's degree. But he has not had a successful career in any way - and by that I mean HE would tell you he has never had a successful career. Was he "college material?" Absolutely. Did he go to a private prep school in high school? Absolutely. Did it further him professionally? Nope, not at all.

I have a brother in law who graduated from Baylor with a bachelor's degree. He went into computer science and has worked in that field professionally for decades. Was he "college material?" Absolutely. Has he put that degree and ability to work? Absolutely. Could he have accomplished the things he has professionally without that degree? No. Would he say he has been professionally successful? Yes. Has he ever worked for himself? No, he's always been an employee - and been happy to be one.

My husband got an associate's degree from a local college. He has worked as a blue collar professional all his life, and about ten years ago became an independent contractor. He was definitely NOT "white collar professional college material." His degree is a technical, two year degree. Thank God it was available because he would have hated going to college for four or more years. Anyway, he prefers to be self employed. Would he say he has been professionally successful? Absolutely.

So they are all over the board - it all boils down to the individual and their drive, their abilities, their opportunities, etc. Education is very important but there are lots of different types of educations that should be available and should be lifted up as pertinent, noble, important, etc.
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Old 06-19-2019, 10:59 AM
 
20,079 posts, read 11,142,800 times
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My best buddy in high school went to welding school while I went to college.

He took the next step and learned how to weld exotic metals.

During the 80s, he was one of a handful of welders in Texas who could repair oil drill bits in the field. When oil companies called him, they didn't even ask his fee, they only asked, "Can we send a helicopter for you right now?"

He retired nearly 20 years ago; I expect to retire in two months.
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