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Old 08-04-2019, 05:05 PM
 
Location: Washington state
5,486 posts, read 2,799,163 times
Reputation: 16516

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Interesting how we see the world through our own prejudices.

If someone is sitting on his butt all day in a toll booth collecting money, then we think that's OK. If someone is sitting on his butt all day out on a corner collecting money, we think that's terrible. I'm still trying to pinpoint why we feel they're different.

I suppose you could say it's because one is paying taxes and the other isn't, but given how even our current president may not be paying his taxes, how is this different? Or do we not like being scammed? We know we get scammed in hundreds of ways throughout the day, but maybe we feel different because we can control the scammer on this one. Or maybe it's just envy, that someone is being successful at doing something we'd never do (and this makes me wonder at how far a person has to fall before he puts his pride aside and does something distasteful to him to make money).

And more than anything else, in this country we admire a self-made man. Isn't a person who has the gumption to endure bad weather and nasty people to make his money more admirable than someone who sits in tollbooth just collecting money from people for someone else's business? Sure, the guy on the street corner is being deceitful, but so are thousands of upper echelon bank officials who fake opening new accounts to meet their goals and get their bonuses. Is the CEO of a company who cuts back on customer and employee safety to make more money any less despicable?

Just throwing an alternative view out there.
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Old 08-04-2019, 05:10 PM
 
Location: San Diego
5,245 posts, read 1,438,682 times
Reputation: 3763
Begging often leaves the beggar with more money than flipping hamburgers or sweeping floors. Some seem to actually prefer begging to minimum-wage work.

From a newspaper in San Diego:

https://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/...rs-point-loma/
"As a young man stood on the median with a cardboard sign begging, I witnessed a four-door car pull up beside him. Another man jumped out of the car onto the median and traded places with the beggar. The cardboard sign was handed off as the original beggar disappeared into the same car. I thought to myself, Did that just happen? I stopped asking this when I saw the same thing occur a few months later at a median on Balboa and Genesee in Clairemont. Different beggars, same scenario."

It wasn't a beggar who finally got enough to sustain him until the next day. It was a shift change.

"About a year or so ago I have a relative that saw someone they knew holding a sign with a child. They were not in Clairemont where they live. They were in Point Loma. This person doesn't have any children. It turned out this person was getting paid to babysit and would take the child because the handouts were bigger with children present. The parents had no idea this was happening until they were spotted."

(Clairemont and Point Loma are neighborhoods in San Diego. Balboa and Genessee are street names)
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Old 08-04-2019, 05:14 PM
 
1,178 posts, read 538,151 times
Reputation: 1279
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodentraiser View Post
Interesting how we see the world through our own prejudices.

If someone is sitting on his butt all day in a toll booth collecting money, then we think that's OK. If someone is sitting on his butt all day out on a corner collecting money, we think that's terrible. I'm still trying to pinpoint why we feel they're different.

I suppose you could say it's because one is paying taxes and the other isn't, but given how even our current president may not be paying his taxes, how is this different? Or do we not like being scammed? We know we get scammed in hundreds of ways throughout the day, but maybe we feel different because we can control the scammer on this one. Or maybe it's just envy, that someone is being successful at doing something we'd never do (and this makes me wonder at how far a person has to fall before he puts his pride aside and does something distasteful to him to make money).

And more than anything else, in this country we admire a self-made man. Isn't a person who has the gumption to endure bad weather and nasty people to make his money more admirable than someone who sits in tollbooth just collecting money from people for someone else's business? Sure, the guy on the street corner is being deceitful, but so are thousands of upper echelon bank officials who fake opening new accounts to meet their goals and get their bonuses. Is the CEO of a company who cuts back on customer and employee safety to make more money any less despicable?

Just throwing an alternative view out there.
Isn't the basic difference one is being compensated for providing a service and the other is exploiting the kindness of strangers.

As for the president, you do realize there is a difference between not paying taxes and not owing taxes, don't you?
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Old 08-04-2019, 06:10 PM
 
2,775 posts, read 1,786,865 times
Reputation: 6119
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodentraiser View Post
Interesting how we see the world through our own prejudices.

If someone is sitting on his butt all day in a toll booth collecting money, then we think that's OK. If someone is sitting on his butt all day out on a corner collecting money, we think that's terrible. I'm still trying to pinpoint why we feel they're different.

I suppose you could say it's because one is paying taxes and the other isn't, but given how even our current president may not be paying his taxes, how is this different? Or do we not like being scammed? We know we get scammed in hundreds of ways throughout the day, but maybe we feel different because we can control the scammer on this one. Or maybe it's just envy, that someone is being successful at doing something we'd never do (and this makes me wonder at how far a person has to fall before he puts his pride aside and does something distasteful to him to make money).

And more than anything else, in this country we admire a self-made man. Isn't a person who has the gumption to endure bad weather and nasty people to make his money more admirable than someone who sits in tollbooth just collecting money from people for someone else's business? Sure, the guy on the street corner is being deceitful, but so are thousands of upper echelon bank officials who fake opening new accounts to meet their goals and get their bonuses. Is the CEO of a company who cuts back on customer and employee safety to make more money any less despicable?

Just throwing an alternative view out there.
One person is employed creating value for their employer, the government A toll is a tax collection approved with the force of law. The government has decided they need these collectors to hit their revenue targets. They’re not collecting this money on their own behalf or for their own sole benefit.

A homeless person panhandling as a long term “job” is providing no value to anyone. No service. No product. They’re relying on the goodness of others (their generosity is fueled by the fact there are real people who are suffering and do need help) and if they’re making good money and doing it long term, it’s basically fraud. And if they’re not paying taxes, it’s two counts of fraud.

This is actually the reason I donate to charity but I would never consider giving money directly to someone on the street. People deserve help, but I get a little skeptical when the 100 homeless sitting downtown all happen to be veterans passing out toothpick American flags.

And yes, a ceo who deliberately cuts back on safety of stakeholders is more despicable in my opinion. I tend to follow the “good profit” belief in that a company needs to provide value for its shareholders...but also the stakeholders in society. Those who fail at either of these mandates, deserves its resources to be reallocated to someone who can. They don’t deserve to continue in business and should be acquired, liquidated, ect.

I won’t bother to try and counter your childish “look at what those people over there did” so I’m not responsible for my actions “defense”.

Last edited by Thatsright19; 08-04-2019 at 06:27 PM..
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Old 08-04-2019, 09:08 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
2,341 posts, read 543,857 times
Reputation: 1224
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnsmith5a View Post
If the economy is sooo great, why are people ditching their jobs to panhandle? I have never seen so many panhandlers asking for "spare" change. Why work for a crappy job when you can get so much tax free cash?
You make it sound as though ditching oneís job and taking up panhandling as a new career choice is the thing to do. The majority of panhandlers are drug addicted, mentally-ill, homeless (or petty criminals) and without jobs, benefits and the ability to survive; the economy is irrelevant to them. Itís not a rags-to-riches story filled with hope and opportunity, obviously.
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Old Yesterday, 12:01 AM
Status: "Proud American, Always and Forever" (set 1 day ago)
 
Location: DMV Area
11,967 posts, read 6,397,230 times
Reputation: 11751
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCal_Native View Post
Because panhandlers know there's a certain segment of society who are idiots and will give the panhandlers money.
Exactly. I stopped giving (or trying to have my parents give ) money to panhandlers as a child. I'll give money to soup kitchens, homeless shelters, etc., but never directly to a beggar to go spend on drugs and alcohol. Note, I will give money to street performers if I like their act, but these are people who are actually earning their paycheck instead of just begging for a handout.
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Old Yesterday, 01:20 AM
 
Location: Washington state
5,486 posts, read 2,799,163 times
Reputation: 16516
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuiteLiving View Post
Isn't the basic difference one is being compensated for providing a service and the other is exploiting the kindness of strangers.

As for the president, you do realize there is a difference between not paying taxes and not owing taxes, don't you?
How do you know he pays his taxes? Has anyone seen the tax returns yet? And why do you think people who give money to others are being exploited? Isn't that just your interpretation of it? Maybe they give because they WANT to give, just like sometimes you want to go out for dinner.

Personally, I'd rather be kind and maybe give money to the wrong people every once in a while than have the attitude of some posters here. At least I can sleep at night.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Thatsright19 View Post
One person is employed creating value for their employer, the government A toll is a tax collection approved with the force of law. The government has decided they need these collectors to hit their revenue targets. They’re not collecting this money on their own behalf or for their own sole benefit.

A homeless person panhandling as a long term “job” is providing no value to anyone. No service. No product. They’re relying on the goodness of others (their generosity is fueled by the fact there are real people who are suffering and do need help) and if they’re making good money and doing it long term, it’s basically fraud. And if they’re not paying taxes, it’s two counts of fraud.

This is actually the reason I donate to charity but I would never consider giving money directly to someone on the street. People deserve help, but I get a little skeptical when the 100 homeless sitting downtown all happen to be veterans passing out toothpick American flags.

And yes, a ceo who deliberately cuts back on safety of stakeholders is more despicable in my opinion. I tend to follow the “good profit” belief in that a company needs to provide value for its shareholders...but also the stakeholders in society. Those who fail at either of these mandates, deserves its resources to be reallocated to someone who can. They don’t deserve to continue in business and should be acquired, liquidated, ect.

I won’t bother to try and counter your childish “look at what those people over there did” so I’m not responsible for my actions “defense”.
So people have to provide value in our society or...what? So what about retired people, or people on disability? What about kids who are born who will never work because they're physically or mentally unable to do so?

Toll takers work for the state. When was the last time the state did anything for you besides raise your taxes? Do you seriously think someone isn't getting a piece of the pie somewhere when you pay your tolls? Do you really think it all goes to salaries and road and bridge maintenance?

You want to talk tax and fraud? How about Walmart and their offshore tax havens for their money? Is that somehow better? Will it keep you from shopping at Walmart?

Here's the thing: nobody HAS to give to panhandlers if they don't want to. Nobody is holding a gun to anyone's head and forcing them to. So why are people so wound up about it? Why is what someone else does with their life and their money so important to others? If you don't want to give, then don't give. If enough people didn't give, the panhandlers wouldn't be there and the problem would solve itself. But meantime, if some people choose to give their money away, what's it to anyone else?

I understand some panhandlers can be very aggressive and those guys need to be arrested and hauled off. But if someone is just sitting or standing on a corner and asking for money and you don't like it? Try walking away. Your blood pressure will thank you and you might live longer.

I am simply amazed at how so many people will just up and die if they can't be involved in the business of other people they don't even know 24 hours a day. And how so many think that everyone has to live to their standards.
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Old Yesterday, 06:19 AM
 
Location: Ontario, NY
2,733 posts, read 6,254,179 times
Reputation: 2776
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edvard View Post
I sat through several cycles of a broken left turn arrow and watched a bum make at least $40 in about 12 minutes. I saw most of the bills handed to him and they were 5's and one ten. There were ones too, but mostly 5's. If it kept up like that all day he made a fortune, although that was rush hour. I'm certain he could have made $800 a day easily, I know he got there at 7 or before and was there until dark. That's awfully good and easy money.
A former co-worker used to be responsible for repairing the Simulcast ticket machines in the race book at several Atlantic City casinos, since the office was a half hour drive, it was more efficient to hang out at the boardwalk all day and wait for service calls. Anyway, this guy was pan handling on the board walk all day in old dirty clothes, and just happened to leave the boardwalk and walk the same direction as my co-worker was walking. He said he stopped at a parking lot, slipped off the beggar clothes, he had nice clothes under them and got into a luxury car. If you have no self respect you could me a decent living pan handling.
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Old Yesterday, 08:16 AM
 
1,178 posts, read 538,151 times
Reputation: 1279
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodentraiser View Post
And why do you think people who give money to others are being exploited? Isn't that just your interpretation of it? Maybe they give because they WANT to give, just like sometimes you want to go out for dinner.
Isn't that what "exploiting the kindness of strangers" means? Someone wants to be kind and you're taking advantage of that predisposition by panhandling from them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rodentraiser View Post
How do you know he pays his taxes? Has anyone seen the tax returns yet?
Okay, so lets see exactly where your misunderstanding comes from. Are you saying

(A) - he doesn't file returns at all
(B) - he filed returns showing tax due and didn't pay it
(C) - he filed returns showing no tax liability
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Old Yesterday, 02:06 PM
 
Location: Upstate NY
35,971 posts, read 10,671,295 times
Reputation: 34222
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodentraiser View Post
How do you know he pays his taxes? Has anyone seen the tax returns yet? And why do you think people who give money to others are being exploited? Isn't that just your interpretation of it? Maybe they give because they WANT to give, just like sometimes you want to go out for dinner.

Personally, I'd rather be kind and maybe give money to the wrong people every once in a while than have the attitude of some posters here. At least I can sleep at night.




So people have to provide value in our society or...what? So what about retired people, or people on disability? What about kids who are born who will never work because they're physically or mentally unable to do so?

Toll takers work for the state. When was the last time the state did anything for you besides raise your taxes? Do you seriously think someone isn't getting a piece of the pie somewhere when you pay your tolls? Do you really think it all goes to salaries and road and bridge maintenance?

You want to talk tax and fraud? How about Walmart and their offshore tax havens for their money? Is that somehow better? Will it keep you from shopping at Walmart?

Here's the thing: nobody HAS to give to panhandlers if they don't want to. Nobody is holding a gun to anyone's head and forcing them to. So why are people so wound up about it? Why is what someone else does with their life and their money so important to others? If you don't want to give, then don't give. If enough people didn't give, the panhandlers wouldn't be there and the problem would solve itself. But meantime, if some people choose to give their money away, what's it to anyone else?

I understand some panhandlers can be very aggressive and those guys need to be arrested and hauled off. But if someone is just sitting or standing on a corner and asking for money and you don't like it? Try walking away. Your blood pressure will thank you and you might live longer.

I am simply amazed at how so many people will just up and die if they can't be involved in the business of other people they don't even know 24 hours a day. And how so many think that everyone has to live to their standards.

Stop it.

If Trump didn't pay his taxes, the IRS would know about it.

And BTW, people, I do give to [some] panhandlers, without strings. If some poor, down-on-his-luck old guy wants to buy booze or a friggin' pack of cigarettes, he can.

Now go ahead and rip me a new one. As if I care.
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